ThatOtherFan Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 And? She was a co-writer in the DC days just as she's a co-writer now. Good enough for ASCAP, good enough to make Billboard's Top 20 Songwriters 2000-Present, but not good enough for you. Which demos has she spoken in depth about writing, lyrics and all? Please provide examples. And what losses am I counting? Beyonce, her credits, and her songwriting awards remain intact and unbothered. You tried. She spoke about writing irreplaceable. The song. At best, she can be credited for adding harmonies to a song that was already fully written. If she can be truly credited with that. Another example, Beyonce received a Golden Globe nomination as a songwriter for "Listen". However, when it came around to the Oscars, they only allowed three writers to be nominated for the track. FYI, Beyonce wasn't one of the three writers. I guess adding "harmonies" or helping with the "melodies" wasn't enough for the Oscars..... People doubt her writing ability because she has been clocked before. That's her fault. Don't speak about songs in which your "co-writing" credit has little to no involvement with the actual creation of the song. BTW, those lists and organizations honor popular songs and the writers behind them. Beyonce, whether deserving or not, is listed as a writer on practically all of her songs. One can argue she's being honored as a result of other's work.The popularity she brings to those songs. However, that has little do with her actual involvement in terms of songwriting. Let's see how many people like and quote this post with Beyonce gifs.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedElegance™ Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 You tried. She spoke about writing irreplaceable. The song. At best, she can be credited for adding harmonies to a song that was already fully written. If she can be truly credited with that. Another example, Beyonce received a Golden Globe nomination as a songwriter for "Listen". However, when it came around to the Oscars, they only allowed three writers to be nominated for the track. FYI, Beyonce wasn't one of the three writers. I guess adding "harmonies" or helping with the "melodies" wasn't enough for the Oscars..... People doubt her writing ability because she has been clocked before. That's her fault. Don't speak about songs in which your "co-writing" credit has little to no involvement with the actual creation of the song. BTW, those lists and organizations honor popular songs and the writers behind them. Beyonce, whether deserving or not, is listed as a writer on practically all of her songs. One can argue she's being honored as a result of other's work.The popularity she brings to those songs. However, that has little do with her actual involvement in terms of songwriting. Let's see how many people like and quote this post with Beyonce gifs.... Nowhere did Beyonce state she wrote 'Irreplaceable' by herself or "lyrics and all". I'm not sure what you mean by "truly credited". Either you're credited or you're not. Beyonce is. The Golden Globes has no restrictions on the number of songwriters it can honour, however the Oscars does. Beyonce never qualified for Best Song because with their limit of three names allowed per one song it comes down to percentage, and of the four writers on 'Listen' her contribution was the lowest (presumably why her name is last in the credits). The same thing happened to Danger Mouse at this year's Oscars; he co-wrote U2's 'Ordinary Love' yet did not receive a nomination. FYI, these are not examples of her discussing her songwriting "in depth" as you claim. Huh? Billboard doesn't discriminate on the grounds of proportion so if you're credited as a writer you'll be rewarded as such. If one could argue that Beyonce is being honoured for the work of others I would hope they could attribute their case to something a little more substantial than gossip blogs. You obviously can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOtherFan Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Nowhere did Beyonce state she wrote 'Irreplaceable' by herself or "lyrics and all". I'm not sure what you mean by "truly credited". Either you're credited or you're not. Beyonce is. The Golden Globes has no restrictions on the number of songwriters it can honour, however the Oscars does. Beyonce never qualified for Best Song because with their limit of three names allowed per one song it comes down to percentage, and of the four writers on 'Listen' her contribution was the lowest (presumably why her name is last in the credits). The same thing happened to Danger Mouse at this year's Oscars; he co-wrote U2's 'Ordinary Love' yet did not receive a nomination. FYI, these are not examples of her discussing her songwriting "in depth" as you claim. Huh? Billboard doesn't discriminate on the grounds of proportion so if you're credited as a writer you'll be rewarded as such. If one could argue that Beyonce is being honoured for the work of others I would hope they could attribute their case to something a little more substantial than gossip blogs. You obviously can't. That's how the controversy started because she said she wrote "Irreplaceable" (whether she went in depth about it or not) and Neyo contradicted that. If memory serves, she talked about her inspiration behind penning the song (If not that, she said she wrote the song. Take your pick). I don't think there would be an issue if she said "I helped with harmonies and melodies on "Irreplaceable". That is part of songwriting and composition, but not writing a song in it's entirely. Especially concerning a song basically fully written before you even touch it. That's exactly why I pointed out the situation with "Listen". The Oscars, unlike the Billboard list and ASCAP, care about the "percentages" the credit writers contribute. If she actually contributed something significant she would have qualified as one of the three writers nominated. That leads back to my original point about Billboard and ASCAP. They honor popular songs and it's credited writers. No distinction is given or criteria made about what the credited writers actually contributed. Hence, it does not speak to Beyonce's abilities as a writer, because as with Listen, it could be a situation where she is a credited writer with the "lowest percentage" of contribution out of the group. I suppose now the argument is "Listen" was the one time she contributed the least out of the credited writers. I'll wait for that ... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock & Roll Hall of Game Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Nowhere did Beyonce state she wrote 'Irreplaceable' by herself or "lyrics and all". I'm not sure what you mean by "truly credited". Beyonce said she wrote "Irreplaceable" ONCE in the spare of the moment at a concert. I guess Twistie forgot? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock & Roll Hall of Game Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 You tried. She spoke about writing irreplaceable. The song. At best, she can be credited for adding harmonies to a song that was already fully written. If she can be truly credited with that. Another example, Beyonce received a Golden Globe nomination as a songwriter for "Listen". However, when it came around to the Oscars, they only allowed three writers to be nominated for the track. FYI, Beyonce wasn't one of the three writers. I guess adding "harmonies" or helping with the "melodies" wasn't enough for the Oscars..... People doubt her writing ability because she has been clocked before. That's her fault. Don't speak about songs in which your "co-writing" credit has little to no involvement with the actual creation of the song. BTW, those lists and organizations honor popular songs and the writers behind them. Beyonce, whether deserving or not, is listed as a writer on practically all of her songs. One can argue she's being honored as a result of other's work.The popularity she brings to those songs. However, that has little do with her actual involvement in terms of songwriting. Let's see how many people like and quote this post with Beyonce gifs.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquaria Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 TOF is actually talking sense Is it the end of days? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedElegance™ Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 That's how the controversy started because she said she wrote "Irreplaceable" (whether she went in depth about it or not) and Neyo contradicted that. If memory serves, she talked about her inspiration behind penning the song (If not that, she said she wrote the song. Take your pick). I don't think there would be an issue if she said "I helped with harmonies and melodies on "Irreplaceable". That is part of songwriting and composition, but not writing a song in it's entirely. Especially concerning a song basically fully written before you even touch it. That's exactly why I pointed out the situation with "Listen". The Oscars, unlike the Billboard list and ASCAP, care about the "percentages" the credit writers contribute. If she actually contributed something significant she would have qualified as one of the three writers nominated. That leads back to my original point about Billboard and ASCAP. They honor popular songs and it's credited writers. No distinction is given or criteria made about what the credited writers actually contributed. Hence, it does not speak to Beyonce's abilities as a writer, because as with Listen, it could be a situation where she is a credited writer with the "lowest percentage" of contribution out of the group. I suppose now the argument is "Listen" was the one time she contributed the least out of the credited writers. I'll wait for that ... Take my pick? You're the one telling the story here. According to you Beyonce has spoken in depth about writing these songs, lyrics and all. I asked for proof of that. If this is it you're going to need to do better than "if memory serves..." People love to cry, "Ne-Yo said! Ne-Yo said!" without actually comprehending what Ne-Yo said. He clarified that 'Irreplaceable' was a co-write after Beyonce said words to the effect of "I wrote this song for all my ladies." In front of thousands of screaming fans is she really going to say, "I changed this chord structure and added harmomies for all my ladies!"? Get real. Like Dioni said, it was spur of the moment and it was not repeated. She never claimed to have written the song in its entirety. 'Listen' is not the first or last time she's contributed the least out of a song's credited writers but it is the only time a technicality like the Oscars has drawn a line in the sand. On the other hand it doesn't simply define the songwriting aspect of her career either. Nobody is under the assumption that Beyonce is pretending to be Prince or Diane Warren. She co-writes and therefore receives co-writing credits, some of which have earned her 11 weeks at number one. Why is that such a sore spot for some people? I'm not going to argue portion size because neither of us are in the detail, but consistency has to count for something and obviously ASCAP and Billboard believe the same. For better or worse all three organisations are an authority on songwriting and contribution to music and at the end of the day none of them hold any surprises for Beyonce fans. I guess Twistie forgot? Forgot what? Show me where she said she wrote 'Irreplaceable' by herself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock & Roll Hall of Game Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Forgot what? Show me where she said she wrote 'Irreplaceable' by herself. Show you? The biggest Beyonce Fan just admitted that Beyonce said slipped up and said she wrote "Irreplaceable" For her fans Sure.. If you want a video. Hold that thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedElegance™ Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Show you? The biggest Beyonce Fan just admitted that Beyonce said slipped up and said she wrote "Irreplaceable" For her fans Sure.. If you want a video. Hold that thought Who is denying she said that? I want proof of her saying she wrote it alone since that's the point you disputed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock & Roll Hall of Game Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Who is denying she said that? I want proof of her saying she wrote it alone since that's the point you disputed. She didn't write it at all.. Alone or not I found this to be quite humorous and relevant: The Vanity Fair article, however, makes it seem like Beyonce is a genius songwriter who came up with all this stuff. Knowles says, without her veracity being questioned: "'Crazy in Love' was really hard to write because there was so much going on … I mean, I had written — what? —seven, eight number one songs with Destiny's Child, in a row." Of Jay-Z's added rap: "I knew the song wasn’t complete because the horns were so old school…" http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/10/18/beyonce-takes-credit-for-writing-songs/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedElegance™ Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 She didn't write it at all.. Alone or not I found this to be quite humorous and relevant: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/10/18/beyonce-takes-credit-for-writing-songs/ And yet Ne-Yo said she did. Songwriting is more than sitting down with a pen and paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock & Roll Hall of Game Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 And yet Ne-Yo said she did. Songwriting is more than sitting down with a pen and paper. This discussion is about PEN & PAPER... I think we all can agree on that... If you cannot agree on that.. then what's ur point? Anything else is irrelevant... Plus without lyrics.. there is no pop song 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedElegance™ Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 This discussion is about PEN & PAPER... I think we all can agree on that... If you cannot agree on that.. then what's ur point? Anything else is irrelevant... Plus without lyrics.. there is no pop song Since WHEN was this discussion about pen and paper? Anything else is irrelevant? Shut up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock & Roll Hall of Game Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Since WHEN was this discussion about pen and paper? :Since page one Linda, how do you feel about Beyonce changing one word on a song and getting writing credit. Does that bother you as a songwriter? well hahaha um thats not songwriting but some of these artists believe if it wasnt for them your song would never get out there so they take a cut just because they are who they are. but everyone knows the real truth even Beyonce. She is talented but in a completely different way 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOtherFan Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Take my pick? You're the one telling the story here. According to you Beyonce has spoken in depth about writing these songs, lyrics and all. I asked for proof of that. If this is it you're going to need to do better than "if memory serves..." People love to cry, "Ne-Yo said! Ne-Yo said!" without actually comprehending what Ne-Yo said. He clarified that 'Irreplaceable' was a co-write after Beyonce said words to the effect of "I wrote this song for all my ladies." In front of thousands of screaming fans is she really going to say, "I changed this chord structure and added harmomies for all my ladies!"? Get real. Like Dioni said, it was spur of the moment and it was not repeated. She never claimed to have written the song in its entirety. 'Listen' is not the first or last time she's contributed the least out of a song's credited writers but it is the only time a technicality like the Oscars has drawn a line in the sand. On the other hand it doesn't simply define the songwriting aspect of her career either. Nobody is under the assumption that Beyonce is pretending to be Prince or Diane Warren. She co-writes and therefore receives co-writing credits, some of which have earned her 11 weeks at number one. Why is that such a sore spot for some people? I'm not going to argue portion size because neither of us are in the detail, but consistency has to count for something and obviously ASCAP and Billboard believe the same. For better or worse all three organisations are an authority on songwriting and contribution to music and at the end of the day none of them hold any surprises for Beyonce fans. Forgot what? Show me where she said she wrote 'Irreplaceable' by herself. If someone says "I wrote this song for all for my ladies", that implies the lyrics and overall the concept of the song. Not that you supposedly added harmonies and melodies that a song that was basically done before you got it. Simply don't say that you wrote the song. Especially if you aren't in an environment where you can break down your actual contribution to said song. That's her fault. I said "take your pick" because I remember how the controversy started (Neyo contradicting what Beyonce said), but I didn't remember the specifics other than Beyonce saying she wrote the song. The Billboard list and Ascap don't ask for a distinction between who did what. It doesn't speak to her abilities as a songwriter. Therefore, it can't be used as proof of her abilities as songwriter. Especially, if the few times we have gotten a breakdown of what she actually contributed ("Irreplaceable" and the "Listen" Oscar situation), it's the least out of everyone involved and just what she contributed is debatable. Going back to my original point, sometimes you gotta know when to cut your losses and move on. Defending her songwriting ability, given what is known and the rumors circulating, it's just one of those things I wouldn't touch as a stan. lol TOF is actually talking sense Is it the end of days? I always talk sense, Rochester! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedElegance™ Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 If someone says "I wrote this song for all for my ladies", that implies the lyrics and overall the concept of the song. Not that you supposedly added harmonies and melodies that a song that was basically done before you got it. Simply don't say that you wrote the song. Especially if you aren't in an environment where you can break down your actual contribution to said song. That's her fault. I said "take your pick" because I remember how the controversy started (Neyo contradicting what Beyonce said), but I didn't remember the specifics other than Beyonce saying she wrote the song. The Billboard list and Ascap don't ask for a distinction between who did what. It doesn't speak to her abilities as a songwriter. Therefore, it can't be used as proof of her abilities as songwriter. Especially, if the few times we have gotten a breakdown of what she actually contributed ("Irreplaceable" and the "Listen" Oscar situation), it's the least out of everyone involved and just what she contributed is debatable. Going back to my original point, sometimes you gotta know when to cut your losses and move on. Defending her songwriting ability, given what is known and the rumors circulating, it's just one of those things I wouldn't touch as a stan. lol I always talk sense, Rochester! I don't disagree that it implies she was involved conceptually which is why I argue the point that her statement was a poorly worded fleeting moment in concert as opposed to the premeditated in-depth analysis you've failed to provide. Linda Perry and "circulating rumours" doesn't speak to her abilities as a songwriter either so at the absence of any hard facts I'll let the liner notes of her albums have the last word. And so will you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock & Roll Hall of Game Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I don't disagree that it implies she was involved conceptually which is why I argue the point that her statement was a poorly worded fleeting moment in concert as opposed to the premeditated in-depth analysis you've failed to provide. Linda Perry and "circulating rumours" doesn't speak to her abilities as a songwriter either so at the absence of any hard facts I'll let the liner notes of her albums have the last word. Great, so we're back to Beyonce doesn't think before she speaks Right... Because we should believe everything we read, starting with the liner notes in Beyoncé's albums 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbreakable. Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Ne-Yo is credited in the album booklet and before saying she wrote the song at the concert, She said Ne-Yo wrote the song various times. What other proof is needed other than this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawdToday Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Y'all act like Beyoncé isn't involved whatsoever in the creative process like Rihanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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