Annie Lennox to Beyoncé: "Twerking Is Not Feminism"

[JoeJoe]

Can we agree that she's only feminist SOMETIMES. Off from promoting her music I haven't seen any feminism from her although I still don't care about feminism. I'm just saying

[jarrylf]

Can we agree that she's only feminist SOMETIMES. Off from promoting her music I haven't seen any feminism from her although I still don't care about feminism. I'm just saying

Eh, that's pretty accurate actually (tho I'd put LITE with it still) but don't think the fans would agree with that tho.

[Reyna ♔]

She meets enough to be called "LITE", not a real 1. The facts support exactly what I said the whole thread, she's only a piece of a feminist, not the full definition. Her point remained the same she just went about it softer, but still maintained that she's Feminist LITE, which is the criteria she meets for the term you posted, she doesn't meet all 4. Period.

 

There is no "lite". Find me a serious source, not merely an opinion like Annie's, where there's a spectrum to this movement where someone can be considered "lite". There is nothing in the foundations or even evolution of this ideology where "lite" or "heavy" is a logical term to use. You are or you are not, plain and simple. She is the full definition, all 4, and you were given examples of why. Social, political/legal, and economic (even a glance at the article link I posted confirms it). What's missing? Nothing. You just have a hangup with it for some reason. The term I posted is feminist. There's no "lite" or "heavy" to seriously consider. The only question is "do you fit the definition or not?", and she does. 

[Rock & Roll Hall of Game]

There is no "lite". Find me a serious source, not merely an opinion like Annie's, where there's a spectrum to this movement where someone can be considered "lite". There is nothing in the foundations or even evolution of this ideology where "lite" or "heavy" is a logical term to use. You are or you are not, plain and simple. She is the full definition, all 4, and you were given examples of why. Social, political/legal, and economic (even a glance at the article link I posted confirms it). What's missing? Nothing. You just have a hangup with it for some reason. The term I posted is feminist. There's no "lite" or "heavy" to seriously consider. The only question is "do you fit the definition or not?", and she does. 

 

I think they're looking at it as if there's a spectrum to judge off of, ya know?

 

Like there are "Extremist" on one side of the spectrum and "Non-Feminist" on the other side...

 

I think they're saying Beyonce is more on the "non-Feminist" end than the middle or the "extremist" end.. but not completely 

 

Does that make sense?

[Reyna ♔]

I think they're looking at it as if there's a spectrum to judge off of, ya know?

 

Like there are "Extremist" on one side of the spectrum and "Non-Feminist" on the other side...

 

I think they're saying Beyonce is more on the "non-Feminist" end than the middle or the "extremist" end.. but not completely 

 

Does that make sense?

 

You're probably right, but even then I disagree. I don't think she's radical or extremist at all, but she's enough to fit the full definition I posted so nothing else matters. He still didn't answer after I posted the article which of the qualifications she doesn't have. He agreed on social and political/legal then I confirmed economic. If you fit the full definition, how are you "lite"? If only one or two qualifications then maybe, even though I still say there's only "feminist" and "non-feminist", but I could see that idea as being reasonable. As of the last two paragraphs, Jarryl has been arguing that since she doesn't proclaim it publicly the way he imagines the hardcore feminists then she's barely a feminist. My point is that she's done enough to fulfill the definition and that being an extremist isn't necessary to be a full-on feminist. 

[Rock & Roll Hall of Game]

You're probably right, but even then I disagree. I don't think she's radical or extremist at all, but she's enough to fit the full definition I posted so nothing else matters. He still didn't answer after I posted the article which of the qualifications she doesn't have. He agreed on social and political/legal then I confirmed economic. If you fit the full definition, how are you "lite"? If only one or two qualifications then maybe, even though I still say there's only "feminist" and "non-feminist", but I could see that idea as being reasonable. As of the last two paragraphs, Jarryl has been arguing that since she doesn't proclaim it publicly the way he imagines the hardcore feminists then she's barely a feminist. My point is that she's done enough to fulfill the definition and that being an extremist isn't necessary to be a full-on feminist.

If you look at it from a 'yes, no' perspective then Beyonce is a yes

But I think Jarryl is looking at it from a "zoomed in perspective"

You both are looking at the same photograph, you're standing 5 feet in front of it, while he's inches away

IMO, not that I care for the topic, I agree with you

[jarrylf]

There is no "lite". Find me a serious source, not merely an opinion like Annie's, where there's a spectrum to this movement where someone can be considered "lite". There is nothing in the foundations or even evolution of this ideology where "lite" or "heavy" is a logical term to use. You are or you are not, plain and simple. She is the full definition, all 4, and you were given examples of why. Social, political/legal, and economic (even a glance at the article link I posted confirms it). What's missing? Nothing. You just have a hangup with it for some reason. The term I posted is feminist. There's no "lite" or "heavy" to seriously consider. The only question is "do you fit the definition or not?", and she does. 

I don't need to find a "serious" source, Annie used the term and I agree with her use of it and terminology of it 100% to describe women like Bey who aren't real feminists. I don't believe "you are or your not" at all and she's not the full definition, political & legal are 2 different things. I have a hangup with it because I grew up with a real 1 my whole life, I know what 1 is, I know what a female celebrity feminist & activist is, and Bey is NOT and she does not fit my criteria for it. A cute lil note doesn't change it, her calling herself it doesn't change it, an actual demonstration in trying to make a difference to the fullest extent of your power is in my book, and she don't fit, and no matter how hard you squeeze her to, she won't because that'd make the term as usless as the term songwriter for her. I think she rightfully deserves every bit of criticism for attaching that title to herself, especially from people who have a in-depth look or understanding for what real feminism is.

 

I think they're looking at it as if there's a spectrum to judge off of, ya know?

 

Like there are "Extremist" on one side of the spectrum and "Non-Feminist" on the other side...

 

I think they're saying Beyonce is more on the "non-Feminist" end than the middle or the "extremist" end.. but not completely 

 

Does that make sense?

YOU GET IT COMPLETELY, THANKYOU JESUS!!! THAT's all Im saying,and that's all Annie was saying! AGAIN Thankyou

[Reyna ♔]

If you look at it from a 'yes, no' perspective then Beyonce is a yes

But I think Jarryl is looking at it from a "zoomed in perspective"

You both are looking at the same photograph, you're standing 5 feet in front of it, while he's inches away

IMO, not that I care for the topic, I agree with you

 

Yeah, I see your point. I just don't understand the reasoning behind looking at it from his perspective. It just seems to me a way to divide feminists and the movement over nothing.

 

Well thank you, anyway.  

[Reyna ♔]

I don't need to find a "serious" source, Annie used the term and I agree with her use of it and terminology of it 100% to describe women like Bey who aren't real feminists. I don't believe "you are or your not" at all and she's not the full definition, political & legal are 2 different things. I have a hangup with it because I grew up with a real 1 my whole life, I know what 1 is, I know what a female celebrity feminist & activist is, and Bey is NOT and she does not fit my criteria for it. A cute lil note doesn't change it, her calling herself it doesn't change it, an actual demonstration in trying to make a difference to the fullest extent of your power is in my book, and she don't fit, and no matter how hard you squeeze her to, she won't because that'd make the term as usless as the term songwriter for her.

 

Bottomline, she fits the definition. The whole of it. Whether you like it or not. Her not being an extremist doesn't genuinely make her not feminist. Okay, how does she not legally qualify? Since I'm assuming that's where your last point is trying to stand. You grew up with a radical feminist. That means she had extra qualities on top of her existing feminism. Which part of the definition doesn't Bey qualify for? The problem with this spectrum opinion is that at some point we need to decide what the hell reality is. Reality was determined by the definition because we need an objective standard to judge on. That's what definitions do in language. Making a spectrum disqualifies a ton of people for no good reason. So until you give me an answer on what she doesn't fit within the definition for me to respond to, I will maintain that she fits it because all of the evidence out there says she does. Is the radical? No. Is she a feminist? Yes. 

[jarrylf]

Bottomline, she fits the definition. The whole of it. Whether you like it or not. Her not being an extremist doesn't genuinely make her not feminist. Okay, how does she not legally qualify? Since I'm assuming that's where your last point is trying to stand. You grew up with a radical feminist. That means she had extra qualities on top of her existing feminism. Which part of the definition doesn't Bey qualify for? The problem with this spectrum opinion is that at some point we need to decide what the hell reality is. Reality was determined by the definition because we need an objective standard to judge on. That's what definitions do in language. Making a spectrum disqualifies a ton of people for no good reason. So until you give me an answer on what she doesn't fit within the definition for me to respond to, I will maintain that she fits it because all of the evidence out there says she does. Is the radical? No. Is she a feminist? Yes. 

Except she doesnt tho. She doesn't have to be a extremist she just has to be willing to do more than write a note, make an appearance or do a performance, hell how about not doing a song calling women bitches and telling them to bow down to her, she just has to do more than put face value with the title like it's the same thing as the women who do more. And you using the term extremist to describe any feminist contradicts your point that it's alllll the same tent, where's it fits mine perfectly because I know theres different types. My aunt protested volunteered and helped other women. She wasn't putting her life in danger with what she was doing because that's an extremeist, my aunt was being a full fledged dedicated in the streets for change feminist, and I am not saying Bey or any celeb or any woman today has to do the same thing to be 1 but they have to do more than have an opinion, the opinion is the start (the LITE), the action and movement is earning the title. And the bottomline truth of the definition is that not all terms are exactly what and limited to what their definitions are, I know that about Language. And I'm OK with you thinking her doing the minimum and keeping it Lite is full fledged feminism, I just don't get why it's so huge that I (Annie, and others who have a differen't more in-depth understanding of what feminism is) can't be entitled to that opinion, you haven't changed it at all, and unless you show her publically taking a stand about something with the words out of her mouth not on a letter that can be heavily edited (besides the use of spell check ofcourse) I won't, I don't get why that's not Ok why this needed to go on for 3 pages, when again I say we should just agree to disagree because neither side is agreeing, and thats fine on my end, it doesn't need hours & pages of these circles, the points were made, and neither opinions will change,we're wasting time.

[Reyna ♔]

Except she doesnt tho. She doesn't have to be a extremist she just has to be willing to do more than write a note, make an appearance or do a performance, hell how about not doing a song calling women bitches and telling them to bow down to her, she just has to do more than put face value with the title like it's the same thing as the women who do more. And you using the term extremist to describe any feminist contradicts your point that it's alllll the same tent, where's it fits mine perfectly because I know theres different types. My aunt protested volunteered and helped other women. She wasn't putting her life in danger with what she was doing because that's an extremeist, my aunt was being a full fledged dedicated in the streets for change feminist, and I am not saying Bey or any celeb or any woman today has to do the same thing to be 1 but they have to do more than have an opinion, the opinion is the start (the LITE), the action and movement is earning the title. And the bottomline truth of the definition is that not all terms are exactly what and limited to what their definitions are, I know that about Language. And I'm OK with you thinking her doing the minimum and keeping it Lite is full fledged feminism, I just don't get why it's so huge that I (Annie, and others who have a differen't more in-depth understanding of what feminism is) can't be entitled to that opinion, you haven't changed it at all, and unless you show her publically taking a stand about something with the words out of her mouth not on a letter that can be heavily edited (besides the use of spell check ofcourse) I won't, I don't get why that's not Ok why this needed to go on for 3 pages, when again I say we should just agree to disagree because neither side is agreeing, and thats fine on my end, it doesn't need hours & pages of these circles, the points were made, and neither opinions will change,we're wasting time.

 

You still haven't answered my question for the thousandth time. What part of the definition does she not fulfill, and how? I have no reason to budge on that if you can't/won't answer it.

 

Contradicts, how? My point this entire time is that fulfilling the definition is all it takes to be a feminist. That doesn't mean you can't clarify your existing feminism with radical/extremists acts which is my reason for using the term. That phrasing before was easier, but there you go for the longer version. A feminist is a still a real feminist if the definition applies. "Extreme" or "radical" is a qualifier of action(s) taken by a feminist. It doesn't make someone more or less of one. They all are acting towards the same goal. The difference is how they go about it.

 

Earning the title means fulfilling the terms in the definition. Definitions serve as the objective standard. You're free to think that there should be a spectrum, and I'm free to stick to the definition only. What's objective and independent of all opinions is that the universal standard for a feminist is fitting the definition given. 

[jarrylf]

You still haven't answered my question for the thousandth time. What part of the definition does she not fulfill, and how? I have no reason to budge on that if you can't/won't answer it.

 

Contradicts, how? My point this entire time is that fulfilling the definition is all it takes to be a feminist. That doesn't mean you can't clarify your existing feminism with radical/extremists acts which is my reason for using the term. That phrasing before was easier, but there you go for the longer version. A feminist is a still a real feminist if the definition applies. "Extreme" or "radical" is a qualifier of action(s) taken by a feminist. It doesn't make someone more or less of one. They all are acting towards the same goal. The difference is how they go about it.

 

Earning the title means fulfilling the terms in the definition. Definitions serve as the objective standard. You're free to think that there should be a spectrum, and I'm free to stick to the definition only. What's objective and independent of all opinions is that the universal standard for a feminist is fitting the definition given. 

Who said you have to budge tho? LOL this again is why Im saying we have to agree to disagree because I don't see either 1 of us budging. That wasn't the point of my initial response, the point was I can understand FULLY that opinion of "Feminist LITE", it wasn't to challenge you it was more so going in depth about my opinion on the matter, Im not here to change your or anyone's mind (that's made up already anyway), Im more so here to represent another undertanding of what that word means that goes beyond the definition. But she's not a legal 1 at all if that's all you care about, and I don't consider her full fledged in the other 3 either for dabling in a few, hell now that I think about it I take away political because her involvement hasn't been about women. And what involvement she does do she does the "Lite" version to me, so there you go, but again it's not and hasn't been about persuading you to change your mind it was about understanding the other side, which it seems like you do (which is why I don't understand why you're not letting it go).

 

Because you said:

There's no such thing as a "lite" or "heavy" feminist. You are or you are not.

Thus saying there are no feminist extremist, when we all know there are, my point is just like there are extremeist there's "lite", same with activism, same with religion same with politics, theres all kinds of levels and spectrums of involvement. Like how Extremest is over the top for every group they're extreme about, the "Lite" aren't, they just do a few things that align with it in their own way. And if you disagree OK, but I don't and have no reason to.

 

It takes fully reaching the term in every publically undenyable way for me to give that title and she doesn't, so I won't give it to her and any of these pop princesses until they do more. 

[Reyna ♔]

Who said you have to budge tho? LOL this again is why Im saying we have to agree to disagree because I don't see either 1 of us budging. That wasn't the point of my initial response, the point was I can understand FULLY that opinion of "Feminist LITE", it wasn't to challenge you it was more so going in depth about my opinion on the matter, Im not here to change your or anyone's mind (that's made up already anyway), Im more so here to represent another undertanding of what that word means that goes beyond the definition. But she's not a legal 1 at all if that's all you care about, and I don't consider her full fledged in the other 3 either for dabling in a few, hell now that I think about it I take away political because her involvement hasn't been about women. And what involvement she does do she does the "Lite" version to me, so there you go, but again it's not and hasn't been about persuading you to change your mind it was about understanding the other side, which it seems like you do (which is why I don't understand why you're not letting it go).

 

Because you said:

 

Thus saying there are no feminist extremist, when we all know there are, my point is just like there are extremeist there's "lite", same with activism, same with religion same with politics, theres all kinds of levels and spectrums of involvement. And if you disagree OK, but I don't and have no reason to.

 

It takes fully reaching the term in every publically undenyable way for me to give that title and she doesn't, so I won't give it to her and any of these pop princesses until they do more. 

 

How is she not a legal one? You can't just say she's not like it's a fact and leave it there without explaining it. 

 

Again, when it comes to the other three, same statement about legal. How does she not qualify? Political applies since she's actively played a role in campaigns and organizations that promote gender equality like GEMS, Chime for Change, and that "Ban Bossy" deal. So yes, that is political. 3 down, legal? Supporting laws that make gender equality recognized by the government. Obviously she votes, but since we can't entirely confirm what for then this is still a question. However, given her political values it stands to reason she supports it through her vote. 

 

You're confusing the context I used it in. When I say someone is radical/extreme, I'm using it as an adjective to qualify their actions. Not whether or not they are more or less of something. That's what "lite" and "heavy" do to me. A "lite" feminist is less of a feminist than a "heavy" one. That, to me, is the wrong way to go about this and I have never contradicted that. You can take extreme actions to qualify or you can meet them by the average standards, but to me and every dictionary out there, you are still a full-feminist. Understand now?

 

For you, sure, I guess. But objectively, no. She's still done what she needs to have done to be called a feminist.

[Rock & Roll Hall of Game]

Oh! Ok.. I wasn't here to intervene but I don't like when y'all fight

Are you to getting a divorce *Plays Family Portrait*

[Reyna ♔]

Oh! Ok.. I wasn't here to intervene but I don't like when y'all fight

Are you to getting a divorce *Plays Family Portrait*

 

People disagree, love. It doesn't mean everything is ending.

 

No, everything's fine.

[Rock & Roll Hall of Game]

People disagree, love. It doesn't mean everything is ending.

No, everything's fine.

Promise

[Reyna ♔]

Promise

 

Yes, I promise. *hugs*

 

Right, Jarryl?

[Rock & Roll Hall of Game]

dammit.. I wanted two Christmases.. I wanted you both to compete for my love and affection for custody

Spoiler Alert: I would have went with Jarryl

[Reyna ♔]

dammit.. I wanted two Christmases.. I wanted you both to compete for my love and affection for custody

Spoiler Alert: I would have went with Jarryl

 

 

Ch. Fine with me. You weren't my favorite anyway.  

[Rock & Roll Hall of Game]

Ch. Fine with me. You weren't my favorite anyway.

[jarrylf]

How is she not a legal one? You can't just say she's not like it's a fact and leave it there without explaining it. 

 

Again, when it comes to the other three, same statement about legal. How does she not qualify? Political applies since she's actively played a role in campaigns and organizations that promote gender equality like GEMS, Chime for Change, and that "Ban Bossy" deal. So yes, that is political. 3 down, legal? Supporting laws that make gender equality recognized by the government. Obviously she votes, but since we can't entirely confirm what for then this is still a question. However, given her political values it stands to reason she supports it through her vote. 

 

You're confusing the context I used it in. When I say someone is radical/extreme, I'm using it as an adjective to qualify their actions. Not whether or not they are more or less of something. That's what "lite" and "heavy" do to me. A "lite" feminist is less of a feminist than a "heavy" one. That, to me, is the wrong way to go about this and I have never contradicted that. You can take extreme actions to qualify or you can meet them by the average standards, but to me and every dictionary out there, you are still a full-feminist. Understand now?

 

For you, sure, I guess. But objectively, no. She's still done what she needs to have done to be called a feminist.

And it keeps going...nowhere

A legal feminist is taking a stance on womens rights with the law, wrongful arrest, wrongful verdic, wrongful sentence, etc. WHEN & WHO did Beyonce do that for? A social 1 I would consider her because she raises the word on the matter, it's the bare minimum. And with your example of organizations she's with, that's nice she alligns herself with such but I don't consider it making her a feminist because she hasn't come out outside of them to speak out for the cause, besides giving a check and appearance maybe so no in my eyes that's not enough. And economically she wrote the letter.....that's nice, but that's not enough, I would like her to take a stand instead of taking a note. Raise her voice to the issue instead of a letter. Based on all that she doesn't meet my criteria to not be referred to as "Feminine Lite". I will actually give her that she's done in many ways more than alot of her peers, but she doesn't earn that title still. But I can't agree that simply by voting, she's a feminist.

 

And she hasn't to me but if she has to you, that's OK

[jarrylf]

OH DEAR! We're upsetting our GAME!

Oh! Ok.. I wasn't here to intervene but I don't like when y'all fight

Are you to getting a divorce *Plays Family Portrait*

Me neither big guy, it's rare so it's weird....especially over Bey....

 

People disagree, love. It doesn't mean everything is ending.

 

No, everything's fine.

Exactly, we still loves each other very much and have tons in common, and agree about tons of things

Yes, I promise. *hugs*

 

Right, Jarryl?

Yes dear

 

dammit.. I wanted two Christmases.. I wanted you both to compete for my love and affection for custody


Spoiler Alert: I would have went with Jarryl

LOL I Knew it

 

 

Ch. Fine with me. You weren't my favorite anyway.

I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Reyna ♔]

And it keeps going...nowhere

A legal feminist is taking a stance on womens rights with the law, wrongful arrest, wrongful verdic, wrongful sentence, etc. WHEN & WHO did Beyonce do that for? A social 1 I would consider her because she raises the word on the matter, it's the bare minimum. And with your example of organizations she's with, that's nice she alligns herself with such but I don't consider it making her a feminist because she hasn't come out outside of them to speak out for the cause, besides giving a check and appearance maybe so no in my eyes that's not enough. And economically she wrote the letter.....that's nice, but that's not enough, I would like her to take a stand instead of taking a note. Raise her voice to the issue instead of a letter. Based on all that she doesn't meet my criteria to not be referred to as "Feminine Lite". I will actually give her that she's done in many ways more than alot of her peers, but she doesn't earn that title still. But I can't agree that simply by voting, she's a feminist.

 

And she hasn't to me but if she has to you, that's OK

Simply by voting in favor of equality do you legally support women so it's likely she has. She's headlined benefits for all of the causes I mentioned. Once again using her platform to promote them. That's conforming her stance on economic equality. That's coming out publicly. If you want her to do more to meet your personal standard, fine, but you have no grounds to say it isn't objectively enough. Voting gives her the legal qualification. Not the only one overall.

 

My standard is the objective one. The only that sticks to definition only. So sure, to me. 

 

Yes dear

 

I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See? Told ya, Game.

 

Keep him. I'm probably taking Bu, and hopefully Matt, so I'm all good.

 

 

 

 

Btw, thanks for giving me the perfect reason to put "Petrillo" in my username.

[jarrylf]

Simply by voting in favor of equality do you legally support women so it's likely she has. She's headlined benefits for all of the causes I mentioned. Once again using her platform to promote them. That's conforming her stance on economic equality. That's coming out publicly. If you want her to do more to meet your personal standard, fine, but you have no grounds to say it isn't objectively enough. Voting gives her the legal qualification. Not the only one overall.

 

My standard is the objective one. The only that sticks to definition only. So sure, to me. 

 

See? Told ya, Game.

 

Keep him. I'm probably taking Bu, and hopefully Matt, so I'm all good.

Sis I'm going to let that be the last word cause damnit I's Tired lol and SOOOOO didn't want this to be a full on thing lol,and we're upsetting the nature of the forum we're supposed to be on the same page (mostly anyway lol), so I call final truce and will not continue on with this, for the good of the forum family! LOL

 

Oh we are sharing custody of Matty & Bubu!   But yes you did always treat Game like our stepchild so I'll take full custody! 

[Reyna ♔]

Sis I'm going to let that be the last word cause damnit I's Tired lol and SOOOOO didn't want this to be a full on thing lol,and we're upsetting the nature of the forum we're supposed to be on the same page (mostly anyway lol), so I call final truce and will not continue on with this, for the good of the forum family! LOL

 

Oh we are sharing custody of Matty & Bubu!   But yes you did always treat Game like our stepchild so I'll take full custody! 

 

So be it, 'cause I'm tired, too.

 

They're old enough to decide when they get here, but they'll still choose me. Or both lol. Like that's all my fault. He's the one that wouldn't ever listen to me.