Shawn1814 Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Ugh. That song is horrible and dated. Move along, blatin. You are an idiot for even thinking that.. They still play it on R&B stations today...It's a classic song, her only classic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Why didn't they make more genres then if they hadnt been discovered? You seem to be requiring MJ to be discovering some new form of music we havent yet heard of to be considered a genius and they arent held to that same standard for some reason? Did we not already discuss how MJ changed music and how it is recieved? You are crediting the classical greats as geniuses based specifically on their influence over music are you not? Isn't that exactly what I am crediting MJ with as well. His influence over music? Or are we now adding a time limit before someone can be considered a genius? There is 0 evidence that his influence will not be felt for the forseeable future so all we can do on that account is hold him up to people who have still been doing it long after they stopped making new stuff or even died. like the beatles and Elvis etc. And in comparison he is right there with them. Bach and Beethoven changed music from the Classical era to the Romantic era. They took what their predecessors left and created something new. Do you understand? MJ did NOT do this. MJ changed how performers present their music in shows. So maybe he's a genius performer, Idk. What he did as a PERFORMER was never seen before. I'm crediting the classical greats as geniuses based off their innovation in music which they did solely. It's not just about influence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 You are an idiot for even thinking that.. They still play it on R&B stations today...It's a classic song, her only classic... You're stupid to even mention that song. What R&B stations play that song? DEAD at being a classic. Sit down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzebabe Posted November 27, 2010 Author Share Posted November 27, 2010 Why didn't they make more genres then if they hadnt been discovered? You seem to be requiring MJ to be discovering some new form of music we havent yet heard of to be considered a genius and they arent held to that same standard for some reason? Did we not already discuss how MJ changed music and how it is recieved? You are crediting the classical greats as geniuses based specifically on their influence over music are you not? Isn't that exactly what I am crediting MJ with as well. His influence over music? Or are we not adding a time limit before someone can be considered a genius? There is 0 evidence that his influence will not be felt for the forseeable future soo all we can do on that account is hold him up to people who have still been doing it long after they stopped making new stuff or even died. like the beatles and Elvis etc. And in comparison he is right there with them. well I can't be sure, but I think she is saying MJ's influence on music is is much more a collaborative effort than it is MJ (solely) influencing music...his producer had just as much to do with it as he did...which is why I said to Blatin that yes, MJ had complexity is his songs, however, when you compare his songs with Quincy Jones to the songs he did after, that complexity is greatly diminished...and if you ask what era of MJ are they most influenced by (musically) 99.9% will give you an era where he worked alongside Quincy Jones and people like Rod Temperton...i'm in this thread trying to stay as neutral as possible, with the exception of saying I don't feel MJ is a musical genius...I like to hear reason why people feel like he is, even if I don't agree with them...I feel that he has worked with a musical genius, but.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn1814 Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 You're stupid to even mention that song. What R&B stations play that song? DEAD at being a classic. Sit down. Wbls and 98.7 kiss in ny play it.. The classic r&B station in Atlanta plays it.. The song is a classic.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOtherFan Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 MJ has not solely created a sound or genre of music nor has he created a memorable classic or hit for another artist MJ "the artist" is never overlooked. MJ "The artist" is just as famous as MJ "The celebrity". Michael was definitely had a sound that was distinctive to him, and you know when someone is emulating it...and he most definitely has influenced almost every artist that followed him. Michael wrote for Diana Ross, Rebbie, and few others I believe...off the top of my head I know the track he composed for Diana was a hit, and of course "Centipede" was a hit. Whether you personally like the tracks or not has nothing to do with whether they are hits and memorable...which would apply to the aforementioned tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzebabe Posted November 27, 2010 Author Share Posted November 27, 2010 Well I guess it depends on one's personal definition of what a musical genius is, but he more than qualifies in my opinion. Just on his music alone, especially songs like "Will You Be There" and "Earth Song," they are filled with genius - the way he wanted to amend each little detail, and would not release an album until he felt it was perfect. I'll just agree to disagree though. open thread boo...all opinions welcomed...sit, have a drink, smoke some weed, and enjoy lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Wbls and 98.7 kiss in ny play it.. The classic r&B station in Atlanta plays it.. The song is a classic.. It's not a classic. I'm sure if you asked someone in New Zealand if they know song they will give you a confused face and tell your ass to have a seat. Stop reaching. A 'classic' is a song like 'You're Not Alone' or 'Thriller' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzebabe Posted November 27, 2010 Author Share Posted November 27, 2010 Michael was definitely had a sound that was distinctive to him, and you know when someone is emulating it...and he most definitely has influenced almost every artist that followed him. Michael wrote for Diana Ross, Rebbie, and few others I believe...off the top of my head I know the track he composed for Diana was a hit, and of course "Centipede" was a hit. Whether you personally like the tracks or not has nothing to do with whether they are hits and memorable...which would apply to the aforementioned tracks. most artists do, but having a "sound" does not equate musical genius IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidfresh832 Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Bach and Beethoven changed music from the Classical era to the Romantic era. They took what their predecessors left and created something new. Do you understand? MJ did NOT do this. MJ changed how performers present their music in shows. So maybe he's a genius performer, Idk. What he did as a PERFORMER was never seen before. I'm crediting the classical greats as geniuses based off their innovation in music which they did solely. It's not just about influence. I am sorry which one are you crediting with this again? The strict criteria you have already laid out assumes only one person could have created it and they had to do it alone with no help to be considered so they clearly both didnt create a genre. From your very posts on the subject so far. One of them is not a genius then by your criteria if you are now arbitrarily handing them the creation of a genre. And other artists like Motzart need to have their wiki pages changed cause they are not geniuses as well who knew?! Poor wolfgang So basically we are left with the caveman who got back to his cave tired from a day of chasing buffalo and thought to himself fuck I'm bored and this drawing shit on caves is not entertaining me so let me hum some cave jams thus creating singing. As the true overall and only musical genius from which all genres of music derived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOtherFan Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 well I can't be sure, but I think she is saying MJ's influence on music is is much more a collaborative effort than it is MJ (solely) influencing music...his producer had just as much to do with it as he did...which is why I said to Blatin that yes, MJ had complexity is his songs, however, when you compare his songs with Quincy Jones to the songs he did after, that complexity is greatly diminished...and if you ask what era of MJ are they most influenced by (musically) 99.9% will give you an era where he worked alongside Quincy Jones and people like Rod Temperton...i'm in this thread trying to stay as neutral as possible, with the exception of saying I don't feel MJ is a musical genius...I like to hear reason why people feel like he is, even if I don't agree with them...I feel that he has worked with a musical genius, but.... That's subjective, and yes I know that's whole point of the conversation...debate, however there are many who appreciate and love Mike's music after Quincy, and feel it's superior to "Thriller" and "Off The Wall" Most are influenced and/or will say they are influenced by his work with Quincy because that's was his pinnacle of success, and people love to emulate success. Which is why I said it'll be YEARS before the world as whole truly examines Michael's entire body of work, because the waters are to muddied with his celebrity/fame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Michael was definitely had a sound that was distinctive to him, and you know when someone is emulating it...and he most definitely has influenced almost every artist that followed him. Michael wrote for Diana Ross, Rebbie, and few others I believe...off the top of my head I know the track he composed for Diana was a hit, and of course "Centipede" was a hit. Whether you personally like the tracks or not has nothing to do with whether they are hits and memorable...which would apply to the aforementioned tracks. I'm not speaking about his singing. MJ didn't have a sound any different from what was done before. If anything Quincy Jones, Teddy Riley and others should be credited for the sound. People emulate his moves, styles and singing style. Do you see where I'm going with this? Diana Ross, Rebbie Jackson and who're the "few others"? I'm not speaking whether I personally liked the songs - I'm simply stating that he didn't write memorable classic/hit for another artist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn1814 Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 It's not a classic. I'm sure if you asked someone in New Zealand if they know song they will give you a confused face and tell your ass to have a seat. Stop reaching. A 'classic' is a song like 'You're Not Alone' or 'Thriller' So because a person in New Zealand doesn't know the song means it's not a classic? It's a classic in the R&B world.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzebabe Posted November 27, 2010 Author Share Posted November 27, 2010 I am sorry which one are you crediting with this again? The strict criteria you have already laid out assumes only one person could have created it and they had to do it alone with no help to be cosidered so they clearly both didnt create a genre. From your very posts on the subject so far. One of them is not a genius then by your criteria if you are now arbitrarily handing them the creation of a genre. And other artists like Motzart need to have their wiki pages changed cause they are not geniuses as well who knew?! Poor wolfgang So basically we are left with the caveman who got back to his cave tired from a day of chasing buffalo and thought to himself fuck I'm bored and this drawing shit on caves is not entertaining me so let me hum some cave jams thus creating singing. As the true overall and only musical genius from which all genres of music derived. you're in here going back and forth and you still haven't answered the question my thread was based on, I feel hurt lol...you've told me why he a great entertainer, but why is he a musical genius? not video genius, not dancing genius...just music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidfresh832 Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 you're in here going back and forth and you still haven't answered the question my thread was based on, I feel hurt lol...you've told me why he a great entertainer, but why is he a musical genius? not video genius, not dancing genius...just music I clearly have answered that question in my first post bze. Music is writing, singing, producing songs. My stand is he has done all of these things exceptionally, and to the very pinnacle of his peers. Every other post is just talking about and debating the merits of what makes a genius in other people's estimations. So you haven't been ignored at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOtherFan Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 I'm not speaking about his singing. MJ didn't have a sound any different from what was done before. If anything Quincy Jones, Teddy Riley and others should be credited for the sound. People emulate his moves, styles and singing style. Do you see where I'm going with this? Diana Ross, Rebbie Jackson and who're the "few others"? I'm not speaking whether I personally liked the songs - I'm simply stating that he didn't write memorable classic/hit for another artist. I'm not speaking about his singing either. Mike did have a sound that was very distinctively his... I named those off top of my head, I remember there are a few others, but I could be wrong... And you stating that would be wrong as he did write songs for others that are memorable and were/are hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escapade Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Well Michael is a musical genius to me because he obviously did something right to influence a whole generation and have everyone out right now looking up to him. He just changed the game and made music that touched everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 I am sorry which one are you crediting with this again? The strict criteria you have already laid out assumes only one person could have created it and they had to do it alone with no help to be considered so they clearly both didnt create a genre. From your very posts on the subject so far. One of them is not a genius then by your criteria if you are now arbitrarily handing them the creation of a genre. And other artists like Motzart need to have their wiki pages changed cause they are not geniuses as well who knew?! Poor wolfgang So basically we are left with the caveman who got back to his cave tired from a day of chasing buffalo and thought to himself fuck I'm bored and this drawing shit on caves is not entertaining me so let me hum some cave jams thus creating singing. As the true overall and only musical genius from which all genres of music derived. What? I'm saying Bach changed modern music theory and Beethoven changed the western concept of music (from Classical to Romantic). You CAN'T compare them to MJ who popularized sounds created by other talented producers. and what the fuck are you talking about with this caveman rubbish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzebabe Posted November 27, 2010 Author Share Posted November 27, 2010 That's subjective, and yes I know that's whole point of the conversation...debate, however there are many who appreciate and love Mike's music after Quincy, and feel it's superior to "Thriller" and "Off The Wall" Most are influenced and/or will say they are influenced by his work with Quincy because that's was his pinnacle of success, and people love to emulate success. Which is why I said it'll be YEARS before the world as whole truly examines Michael's entire body of work, because the waters are to muddied with his celebrity/fame. well i'm of them...Dangerous is my favorite MJ album...but my response was just to what Blatin said about the complexity of his songs...while I feel like Thriller is not his best album, I do feel that as far as the music is concerned (when I say music i'm talking about the things people would consider to be "genius-like), his work with Quincy Jones is his best...Teddy Riley's work on Dangerous was just Teddy doing typical Teddy aka Teddy jackin Prince and Jimmy and Terry for beats (yes that was a little Teddy Riley shade lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escapade Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 He made pop music, rock, soul, R&B, basically everything except rap lol... I can't think of a country one either lol. Michael along with Stevie and Prince were all musical geniuses. Quincy too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 I'm not speaking about his singing either. Mike did have a sound that was very distinctively his... I named those off top of my head, I remember there are a few others, but I could be wrong... And you stating that would be wrong as he did write songs for others that are memorable and were/are hits. No, he didn't. The sounds that had on his albums were used by other artists at the time. He even used his own sister's sound but the public is too far up his ass to see that. He didn't write memorable songs for other artists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escapade Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 If you listen to songs like Stranger In Moscow, the lyrics are just GENIUS. He doesn't just sing about how much money he gets and how many hoes he has like the rest of the people out now lol. His whole HIStory album had a distinct message is was just pure genius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 So because a person in New Zealand doesn't know the song means it's not a classic? It's a classic in the R&B world.. No, it means it's not well-known nor timeless. It's dated and it stayed in the 80's. The end. The same can be said for the song he wrote for Diana Ross. No, it's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidfresh832 Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 No, he didn't. The sounds that had on his albums were used by other artists at the time. He even used his own sister's sound but the public is too far up his ass to see that. He didn't write memorable songs for other artists. Now you have added that a genius have to have written memorable songs for other artists on top of your already untenable criteria? Wow. Once again our friends bach and beethoven are looking shaky as a genius duo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 A Gift + a hard work 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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