"You are my friends if you do what I command"

[bu.]

*sprays water on all of the heathens*

[Rock & Roll Hall of Game]

*sprays water on all of the heathens*

While you're at it.. Give me a shot of that cheap wine I mean Jesus's delicious blood

[Reyna ♔]

I don't think it's a problem. Just keep your religion on your car... In your own house or business (tho it's not good business but w/e) and at church.. Don't push your religion on others is all I'm saying (Mike Hickabee)

But they don't, and even more their religion tells them to be "missionaries" and to "spread the good news" and "save the souls of the lost", etc. Since it tells them that, they feel obligated to do it, which is the problem we run into because it enters places it doesn't belong like science, education, politics and other people's personal lives.

[Reyna ♔]

*sprays water on all of the heathens*

[bu.]

!

[aed05]

I have no problem with organized religion. I was raised Christian and in all honesty it really is a beautiful faith that has its virtues. What I have a problem with are crazy fundalmentalist nut jobs who scream, yell and judge those who do not follow THEIR path. And this goes for all religions and faiths. Just because one does not share YOUR beliefs does not mean that they are heathens nor are they damned to hell. Other than that, i have no problem with how anyone worships. With that said, I also can't stand those that bash religion based on their own past experiences with the people I mention previously. Don't let your bad experience cause you to make judgements on entire faiths.

[jarrylf]

I actually often agree with Bill Maher's stance on religion(as well as politics), though I agree with you as well he can be very aggressive in his way of going about it. Atheists don't claim to know all the answers, rather they will often admit they don't. Their stance is that they're actually looking for it through research, reason, doubting/questioning, etc. as opposed to just accepting they don't know(willful ignorance) or put everything on a god(God of the Gaps). I will say however, that if religious people didn't try to put their faith into where it doesn't belong (science, education, politics) in a way that says people can't question it and it's "the law" there wouldn't be much aggression against. Also, how else do you learn any truth except to question and take apart what's been assumed already? Religion needs to be questioned(since people often base their lives and the lives of others on this), and if shoved into the public arena like it has been, it will be.

I know what you mean, I've got aot of friends who are Atheist so I understand that more often than not they're open to finding what works for them, but my problem with Bill's approach is besides putting down anyone who has faith in anything, but he does act like he knows more about what you believe than you do.with all people who have any kind of belief in something that can't be explained, he automatically thinks we hate science & facts like the Christians. I've seen guess on his show who are spiritually/religiously similar to me and pretty much have to read Bill because he groups it in with christianity. Like I can agree with him (and all who agree) that organized religion is the cause of alot of problems in the world have been for decades, but he does not get that every person that has faith is not in a organized religion and doesn't automatically think less of facts or science.

[jarrylf]

I'm really glad we got this thread started, I love talking this kinda stuff, whether I agree or disagree, it's always a good convo.

[Reyna ♔]

I know what you mean, I've got aot of friends who are Atheist so I understand that more often than not they're open to finding what works for them, but my problem with Bill's approach is besides putting down anyone who has faith in anything, but he does act like he knows more about what you believe than you do.with all people who have any kind of belief in something that can't be explained, he automatically thinks we hate science & facts like the Christians. I've seen guess on his show who are spiritually/religiously similar to me and pretty much have to read Bill because he groups it in with christianity. Like I can agree with him (and all who agree) that organized religion is the cause of alot of problems in the world have been for decades, but he does not get that every person that has faith is not in a organized religion and doesn't automatically think less of facts or science.

Well there have been studies that Atheists and Agnostics do know more about faith and the bible(and other religious texts) because more Atheists/Agnostics actually read them. Also, what I can see here in what you say and the text above yours is, in a way, Religious moderation vs Religious fundamentalism. The reason why Bill and others like him group them all together is because Moderates, even though they claim not to be Fundamentalists, still pander to the Fundamentalists by making it seem like because they have a slightly better will to reason it means the religion is overall good. To be honest, if there are any true religious people, then the fundamentalists are it. Moderates make no sense to me at all, since as I have observed, cherry-pick more out of the faith than the Fundies do. Science and religion don't agree, never have and never will.

[aed05]

Well there have been studies that Atheists and Agnostics do know more about faith and the bible(and other religious texts) because more Atheists/Agnostics actually read them. Also, what I can see here in what you say and the text above yours is, in a way, Religious moderation vs Religious fundamentalism. The reason why Bill and others like him group them all together is because Moderates, even though they claim not to be Fundamentalists, still pander to the Fundamentalists by making it seem like because they have a slightly better will to reason it means the religion is overall good. To be honest, if there are any true religious people, then the fundamentalists are it. Moderates make no sense to me at all, since as I have observed, cherry-pick more out of the faith than the Fundies do. Science and religion don't agree, never have and never will.

I wouldn't say that Moderators cherry-pick as much as they look at things logically and realize that religious books( bible, koran...ect) are a foundation of faith and can not always be taken literally. Many parts of the bible were written with the laws of the land in mind. But the bible evolves as you read it and some parts can be extreme in their rightousness while others parts can be extreme with love and understanding. To be quite honest, some Atheist are as extreme as the fundalmentalist which is why they butt heads so much. Why does a person of faith need to "Prove" something to you for you to take them seriously. If you don't believe what does it matter anyway. And this goes for crazy fundamentalist as well. Why does that person not believing bother you so much if you're content in YOUR faith. If anything the moderators make the most sense.

[jarrylf]

Well there have been studies that Atheists and Agnostics do know more about faith and the bible(and other religious texts) because more Atheists/Agnostics actually read them. Also, what I can see here in what you say and the text above yours is, in a way, Religious moderation vs Religious fundamentalism. The reason why Bill and others like him group them all together is because Moderates, even though they claim not to be Fundamentalists, still pander to the Fundamentalists by making it seem like because they have a slightly better will to reason it means the religion is overall good. To be honest, if there are any true religious people, then the fundamentalists are it. Moderates make no sense to me at all, since as I have observed, cherry-pick more out of the faith than the Fundies do. Science and religion don't agree, never have and never will.

Well I can understand that (about Athiest reading more on the sugject than alot of followers of organized religion) but when he's still grouping all people of faith in no matter what context or what it is, he automatically like I don't identify with the title Christian at all, but my specific sprituality has Christianity traits (as well as buddhism and others) but he'd group me in with just 1 of them (Words cannot express how that turns me off of a person when they do that). I gotta disagree on the moderate vs fundamentalist discussion, I think Moderates apply specifically what works for them & their life specifically, opposed to blindlessly following what they've been taught. And I think science and faith can co exist even for each other in some instances, but thats my opinion. I hear ya twin

[Reyna ♔]

I wouldn't say that Moderators cherry-pick as much as they look at things logically and realize that religious books( bible, koran...ect) are a foundation of faith and can not always be taken literally. Many parts of the bible were written with the laws of the land in mind. But the bible evolves as you read it and some parts can be extreme in their rightousness while others parts can be extreme with love and understanding. To be quite honest, some Atheist are as extreme as the fundalmentalist which is why they butt heads so much. Why does a person of faith need to "Prove" something to you for you to take them seriously. If you don't believe what does it matter anyway. And this goes for crazy fundamentalist as well. Why does that person not believing bother you so much if you're content in YOUR faith. If anything the moderators make the most sense.

But the Bible says it's the divine word of god. If it's the divine word and is entirely perfect, then where does moderation come in? How does a book that is supposed to be written without mistake evolve? It doesn't. PEOPLE do. Actual Christians, take the Bible as it is and follow it. Not say some is right and some is wrong. You're not a Christian anymore at that point. That isn't to say you can't agree with the few good parts in the Bible, but you aren't Christian. When the religious force their faith on others and in the fields I've mentioned before, then it needs to be proven to be taken seriously in the argument. You don't get to say "This is true and applies to everyone" and expect it not to be questioned. Moderates make sense as skeptics, not as believers in faith, organized or not.

[Reyna ♔]

Well I can understand that (about Athiest reading more on the sugject than alot of followers of organized religion) but when he's still grouping all people of faith in no matter what context or what it is, he automatically like I don't identify with the title Christian at all, but my specific sprituality has Christianity traits (as well as buddhism and others) but he'd group me in with just 1 of them (Words cannot express how that turns me off of a person when they do that). I gotta disagree on the moderate vs fundamentalist discussion, I think Moderates apply specifically what works for them & their life specifically, opposed to blindlessly following what they've been taught. And I think science and faith can co exist even for each other in some instances, but thats my opinion. I hear ya twin

What sparks an attack from an Atheist on matters of faith is when you identify with, what I'll say, the magical parts of the story. The virgin birth, divinity of the savior, earth being created in 7 days, etc and attempting to solidify that as being true. Championing the meek and the poor, healing the sick for free, being against greed, few Atheists would be against this and even less would group you in with Christians or the religious in general for agreeing with those things. They aren't ideas born out of religion but become a part of them as humans evolve and develop through time. Read my other response and when religion says that god created the world in 7 days(in an illogical order mind you) with everything being made just for humanity and science researches and finds that a big bang started it all and evolution took place over billions of years, you have a sharp disagreement.

[Escapade]

Arguing about religion is virtually pointless to me anyways LOL. All sides are set in their ways and have no intentions on changing them.

[Escapade]

But the Bible says it's the divine word of god. If it's the divine word and is entirely perfect, then where does moderation come in? How does a book that is supposed to be written without mistake evolve? It doesn't. PEOPLE do. Actual Christians, take the Bible as it is and follow it. Not say some is right and some is wrong. You're not a Christian anymore at that point. That isn't to say you can't agree with the few good parts in the Bible, but you aren't Christian. When the religious force their faith on others and in the fields I've mentioned before, then it needs to be proven to be taken seriously in the argument. You don't get to say "This is true and applies to everyone" and expect it not to be questioned. Moderates make sense as skeptics, not as believers in faith, organized or not.

But not all religious people do that.

[Reyna ♔]

But not all religious people do that.

The majority do and are always the ones who make themselves heard, and the minority who don't never check the ones who do. They cover for them or just brush it off since they don't do it.

[Escapade]

The majority do, and the minority who don't never check the ones who do. They cover for them or just brush it off since they don't do it.

Majority ≠ all and you haven't met them all to make that statement. For example, my mom is a deeply religious person. Some woman went on a rant about gays and how God hates them and my mom (a deep Christian) checked her with a quickness. She shut that woman all the way down.

[jarrylf]

What sparks an attack from an Atheist on matters of faith is when you identify with, what I'll say, the magical parts of the story. The virgin birth, divinity of the savior, earth being created in 7 days, etc and attempting to solidify that as being true. Championing the meek and the poor, healing the sick for free, being against greed, few Atheists would be against this and even less would group you in with Christians or the religious in general for agreeing with those things. They aren't ideas born out of religion but become a part of them as humans evolve and develop through time. Read my other response and when religion says that god created the world in 7 days(in an illogical order mind you) with everything being made just for humanity and science researches and finds that a big bang started it all and evolution took place over billions of years, you have a sharp disagreement.

Yea I mean for me faith and facts can go together because I don't believe in the examples you used as with most of the magical/mythology parts of the bible as facts. I think it can for ANYONE who doesn't take the bible for it's literal word like myself, and alot of Moderates, I think it's entirely possible to accept/know Evolution as a fact but still have faith in what can't be seen or scientifically explained. So I more so disagreed with the notion of science vs faith for me personally, but not necessarily every religious person.

[Reyna ♔]

Majority ≠ all and you haven't met them all to make that statement. For example, my mom is a deeply religious person. Some woman went on a rant about gays and how God hates them and my mom (a deep Christian) checked her with a quickness. She shut that woman all the way down.

I didn't say it equaled all. I know it doesn't. My point is that the majority is what's pandered to and the majority DO think that way. I am thankful your mom did that. Perhaps if many in the minority, like she is, did that more often with those in the majority who talk and are more often heard like the woman she was talking to, faith wouldn't need to be discussed like this.

[jarrylf]

Arguing about religion is virtually pointless to me anyways LOL. All sides are set in their ways and have no intentions on changing them.

I don't think we're arguing tho I think we're having a discussion. And I love it.........cause I'm bored as fuck lol. but I do like picking peoples brains on this subject, if they're open to it ofcourse.

[Reyna ♔]

Yea I mean for me faith and facts can go together because I don't believe in the examples you used as the magical/mythology of the bible. I think it can for ANYONE who doesn't take the bible for it's literal word like myself, and alot of Moderates, I think it's entirely possible to accept/know Evolution as a fact but still have faith in what can't be seen or scientifically explained. So I more so disagreed with the notion of science vs faith for me personally, but not necessarily every religious person.

The position you describe sounds more-so like Deism. Not Christian moderation.

[aed05]

But the Bible says it's the divine word of god. If it's the divine word and is entirely perfect, then where does moderation come in? How does a book that is supposed to be written without mistake evolve? It doesn't. PEOPLE do. Actual Christians, take the Bible as it is and follow it. Not say some is right and some is wrong. You're not a Christian anymore at that point. That isn't to say you can't agree with the few good parts in the Bible, but you aren't Christian. When the religious force their faith on others and in the fields I've mentioned before, then it needs to be proven to be taken seriously in the argument. You don't get to say "This is true and applies to everyone" and expect it not to be questioned. Moderates make sense as skeptics, not as believers in faith, organized or not.

It does evolve especially when you compare the old and new testament. They are not the same, with the old being far more strict and judgemental than the new. This is why many Jewish people will tell you that their faith is the religion of justice while christianity is the religion of forgiveness. The teachings of christ were far more enclusive than those of the prophets in old testament before him. And I've already discussed religious fundalmentalist and how they should not be taken seriously but then again they like to argue and so do many Atheist, so maybe they deserve each other. I think its easier for Atheist deal with a fundalmentalist than with a moderate because they know the fundalmentalist is crazy and extreme . The moderate might actually make some sense and get through. And for the record, I do not believe god "spoke" the bible into existance. Clearly it was written and interpreted by man. Most logical thinking adults understand that. Those who study theology will tell you that. What makes a christian a christian is following the teachings of Christ who taught love, exceptance and forgiveness. Most fundalmentalist are less "christian" than the moderates.

[jarrylf]

It does evolve especially when you compare the old and new testament. They are not the same, with the old being far more strict and judgemental than the new. This is why many Jewish people will tell you that their faith is the religion of justice while christianity is the religion of forgiveness. The teachings of christ were far more enclusive than those of the profits in old testament before him. And I've already discussed religious fundalmentalist and how they should not be taken seriously but then again they like to argue and so do many Atheist, so maybe they deserve each other. I think its easier for Atheist deal with a fundalmentalist than with a moderate because they know the fundalmentalist is crazy and extreme . The moderate might actually make some sense and get through. And for the record, I do not believe god "spoke" the bible into existance. Clearly it was written and interpreted by man. Most logical thinking adults understand that. Those who study teology will tell you that. What makes a christian a christian is following the teachings of Christ who taught love, exceptance and forgiveness. Most fundalmentalist are less "christian" than the moderates.

WOW, I never thought about it like that, lol nice elaboration, the whole thing is really food for thought.

The position you describe sounds more-so like Deism. Not Christian moderation.

Oh yea I definitely think what I describe does identify with Deism, but I do know alot of Christian Moderates (related to a few) who live as I described where they accept facts about science and identify themselves as Christians don't take the bible's mythology literal.

[Reyna ♔]

It does evolve especially when you compare the old and new testament. They are not the same, with the old being far more strict and judgemental than the new. This is why many Jewish people will tell you that their faith is the religion of justice while christianity is the religion of forgiveness. The teachings of christ were far more enclusive than those of the profits in old testament before him. And I've already discussed religious fundalmentalist and how they should not be taken seriously but then again they like to argue and so do many Atheist, so maybe they deserve each other. I think its easier for Atheist deal with a fundalmentalist than with a moderate because they know the fundalmentalist is crazy and extreme . The moderate might actually make some sense and get through. And for the record, I do not believe god "spoke" the bible into existance. Clearly it was written and interpreted by man. Most logical thinking adults understand that. Those who study teology will tell you that. What makes a christian a christian is following the teachings of Christ who taught love, exceptance and forgiveness. Most fundalmentalist are less "christian" than the moderates.

How is Christianity so forgiving when it REQUIRES you to believe in Jesus' divinity and his "sacrifice"(which only lasted three days and he knew he would get up again) or else burn in hell for all eternity? What kind of love and forgiving and understanding is that? I agree with some things Jesus said, but not enough to say his religion is as peaceful or forgiving as it gets. Atheists deal better with moderates because neither take much of the bible seriously. Atheists are just confused as to why moderates would still identify as Christian when they're actually better aligned with deists. Fundamentalists follow the bible as is, therefore are the most religious and Christian. It is easy to believe and practice love, forgiveness and acceptance and NOT be Christian or religious. Those ideas are NOT fundamentally Christian or even religious. Christianity is rooted in the idea Jesus's divinity and believing that only through him can you be saved.

[Reyna ♔]

Oh yea I definitely think what I describe does identify with Deism, but I do know alot of Christian Moderates (related to a few) who live as I described where they accept facts about science and identify themselves as Christians don't take the bible's mythology literal.

How are they Christian if they don't believe in the divinity of Jesus? That's the premise he gave for taking what he said to be true. That he was the son of god. You can believe in the ideas/philosophies but not be Christian. That's what I don't get about moderation.