Imma bout to snatch some straight MJ wigs with this...

[Mr. Wonder]

I don't think the concept came from it at all, I think just the foundation of what was done in Captain EO. Janet took that foundation and basis to a whole other level.

One can argue Mike's influence on Janet is more prevalent since, she did create her own niche, but it's from the template and blueprint Mike established. Also, as I've mentioned Mike was at his creative zenith while Janet was creating her own niche, so it's silly to dismiss all of that to say she influenced him more, etc.

Of course Janet influenced Mike's post-Control projects, that is the point. She not only carved her own niche, but created her own template in the industry (which influenced Mike). You just can't dismiss or negate the fact that Janet's template came from the influence and blueprint that Mike established and continue to tweak in the following years.

Also, HIStory was inspired by the hell Mike had just experienced in life. I think that had less to do with Janet's influence...and more to do with him trying to get out the anger, pain, and frustration he felt. Along with trying to tell his side of the story in the best way he could, through his music.

I see what you're saying in that MJ is Janet's foundation, but you have to look past that part. MJ may be the foundation, but Janet built the house. MJ then built another house and took bits and pieces from the house Janet built. It's just a bit more obvious that MJ borrow a little more than Janet borrowed from MJ. Example, MJ pretty much xeroxed Janet's vocal style on SOTW for WYWTOM on Dangerous. LWND -----> ITC. MJ started using themed choreography in RTT as Janet had done on RN. Janet's influence on MJ was just a little more than MJ's influence on Janet.

And as for HIStory you just proved my point. MJ used the album to tell his story, as Janet had done on Control. You got to know Janet a bit with that album, and everything she had been through up until that point. Then MJ comes along and does the same thing with HIStory.

@ 'bad romance' having a storyline. The video is directed by the same guy that did 'son of a gun'. That video is what gaga tried to copy.

There are way more videos with janets blueprint, than Michaels.

"Bad Romance" does have a storyline. It's quite obvious.

Chile MJ tried to "borrow" Janet's whole template.

[ThatOtherFan]

TOF, you are misconstruing the meaning of influence here. Someone can be influenced by another and do something ENTIRELY different, or they can be influenced and do something incredibly similar, ie Michael with Janet.

And if you think that's taking away from Dangerous. Okay. That's your opinion, not mine.

Influence is influence...you're argument is in details, and you're using semantics to credit one as being more "blatantly" influential to the other. Which is where things get murky because the argument can be made (and legitimately) that they both were "blatantly" influenced by the other.

Looks like my brother has a great handle on this. No need for me to interject

I always have a strong grip on the girls tattered wigs, and I refuse to let go!

I see what you're saying in that MJ is Janet's foundation, but you have to look past that part. MJ may be the foundation, but Janet built the house. MJ then built another house and took bits and pieces from the house Janet built. It's just a bit more obvious that MJ borrow a little more than Janet borrowed from MJ. Example, MJ pretty much xeroxed Janet's vocal style on SOTW for WYWTOM on Dangerous. LWND -----> ITC. MJ started using themed choreography in RTT as Janet had done on RN. Janet's influence on MJ was just a little more than MJ's influence on Janet.

And as for HIStory you just proved my point. MJ used the album to tell his story, as Janet had done on Control. You got to know Janet a bit with that album, and everything she had been through up until that point. Then MJ comes along and does the same thing with HIStory.

That is the point that I've made, Janet took that foundation from EO and built a house with what she did in RN. However, though Mike was influenced by what his sister did, he was also planning to do the exact same thing before Janet mentioned the idea to him, or used it in videos. As I said, you have a situation where two siblings virtually came up with an idea at same time, and once again they both influenced what the other was doing.

As for the rest, who do we credit more, the template, or the person that created their own niche from said template? Like I previously said, that's when things get murky because the argument can be made (and legitimately) that both "blatantly" took from the other.

HIStory came into being because of the circumstances. It's not as if he randomly decided to open up on a record, and that is the point. You are attributing something to Janet, that was truly brought about by him having his life turned up side down.

[Mr. Wonder]

But you're saying that what Janet did wouldn't have been possible without MJ creating the template. Who's to say she wouldn't have WITHOUT him. You have to bear in mind that MJ is not Janet's only influence. Remember, Janet was dancing during MGM and on The Jacksons Show. She danced alongside the Nicholas Brothers and the rest of her siblings. She also had 30 mins of ballet lessons until the teacher hit her. She has named Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Joni Mitchell, and the Brazilian Jazz artists as her influences. I see a bit of Stevie and Marvin in Janet in regards to the idea of a concept album (What's Going On, Songs In The Key Of Life) and themed albums. Once again, something MJ didn't do until AFTER Janet was doing it. HIStory is in that same vain. MJ didn't start using his albums as a medium to tell his story until AFTER Janet did it. Joni Mitchell is a big singer-songwriter, something that Janet picked up on.

There's also the matter of the themed choreography. Arguably, Janet did this first. "Beat It" choreography is more so performance, there isn't really a theme to it. RN was militant. Then RTT was Egyptian. Those are two things MJ started doing as a result of Janet doing it. The purpose of having influences is to draw from them and create your own niche. And that's what she did. After perfecting her own craft, MJ came along and borrowed bits and pieces of it. Like I said previously, Janet never went as far as using MJ's video directors or his music producers. MJ did. When MJ went that far it became apparent who was borrowing more from who. Again, I can do nothing but agree with TV and Dimpy.

[ThatOtherFan]

But you're saying that what Janet did wouldn't have been possible without MJ creating the template. Who's to say she wouldn't have WITHOUT him.

This isn't a "what could've happened" thread. We're debating about the circumstances as they took place. The reality is Janet took significant from the template Mike established. Did Janet create her own niche, and establish a template of her own? Absolutely. Did Janet's niche/template ultimately influence Mike? Absolutely.

However, it goes back to what I was saying, who gets more credit as being more "blatantly" influential, the template or the niche established from said template?

You have to bear in mind that MJ is not Janet's only influence. Remember, Janet was dancing during MGM and on The Jacksons Show. She danced alongside the Nicholas Brothers and the rest of her siblings.

She had other influences, just as Mike had other influences in establishing his own template. We're discussing their influences on one another.

She also had 30 mins of ballet lessons until the teacher hit her.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

She has named Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Joni Mitchell, and the Brazilian Jazz artists as her influences. I see a bit of Stevie and Marvin in Janet in regards to the idea of a concept album (What's Going On, Songs In The Key Of Life) and themed albums. Once again, something MJ didn't do until AFTER Janet was doing it. HIStory is in that same vain. MJ didn't start using his albums as a medium to tell his story until AFTER Janet did it. Joni Mitchell is a big singer-songwriter, something that Janet picked up on.

The album you are referring to again, came about because of his troubles and having his life turned upside down. You can't credit Janet with that.

For instance, Mike has always written about himself in his music and his views on the world. Concerning himself, he always wrote his lyrics in a way that you wouldn't necessarily know that he was talking about himself and that it actually related to his life. His most "well known" song (Billie Jean) is actually about himself, but he wrote in away that told a story without actually giving specific details of the events as they happened.

Kind of how Janet approached the story telling in her music Pre-VR. Though her songs had more attitude and was bit more edgier than Mike Pre-control.

I mention all of this to say, the argument can be made that after Mike's HIStory (containing songs that not only discussed his life, but went deeply personal with things that had taken place in the last few years of his life), that Janet decided to go "deeper" with the subjects she covered pertaining to her life as well. Which would be Janet "blatantly" taking from her influence by Mike...

Do you see what I mean about arguing over "the details" and using semantics to credit one as being more "blatantly" influential over the other?

There's also the matter of the themed choreography. Arguably, Janet did this first. "Beat It" choreography is more so performance, there isn't really a theme to it. RN was militant. Then RTT was Egyptian. Those are two things MJ started doing as a result of Janet doing it. The purpose of having influences is to draw from them and create your own niche. And that's what she did. After perfecting her own craft, MJ came along and borrowed bits and pieces of it. Like I said previously, Janet never went as far as using MJ's video directors or his music producers. MJ did. When MJ went that far it became apparent who was borrowing more from who. Again, I can do nothing but agree with TV and Dimpy.

That again goes back to who do you credit more "the template" or "the niche" that was derived from said template.

[Mr. Wonder]

I think you're still hellbent on the argument of MJ creating the template. Again, you have to look BEYOND that. Go the next step.

The situation with the album isn't really debatable. MJ didn't use the entire album as a medium to show the real him. It didn't come as a result of everything that had happened to him. He first started getting the media foolery in what...1985/1986 when the public began to take notice of his vitiligo? Why didn't he do it with Bad or Dangerous? MJ took notice of how Janet used the album to serve a purpose. MJ didn't have themed albums until Janet started doing it. MJ didn't have a personal album until after Janet did it.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying. But there's a CLEAR difference between being influenced by an artist, and working with the SAME people your sibling used for their projects AFTER they had worked with said people.

[ThatOtherFan]

I think you're still hellbent on the argument of MJ creating the template. Again, you have to look BEYOND that. Go the next step.

There is no next step. Mike created and established the template that Janet created her own niche/template from. Hence, me saying who gets more credit as being "blatantly" influential? The template, or the niche created from said template?

You can't have it both ways...which is why I've said the both influenced one another and it should be left at that.

The situation with the album isn't really debatable. MJ didn't use the entire album as a medium to show the real him. It didn't come as a result of everything that had happened to him.

HIStory didn't come about because of everything that to him?

With the exception of a one or two songs (just as VR) everything of HIStory dealt with that situation, the feelings the situation, and who he felt he was as a person.

He first started getting the media foolery in what...1985/1986 when the public began to take notice of his vitiligo? Why didn't he do it with Bad or Dangerous?

Because the situation didn't happen until 93. You can't write about something that hasn't happened. lol Which proves, as I said, that HIStory didn't come about because of Janet's influence so as him actually experiencing a traumatic situation in life.

MJ took notice of how Janet used the album to serve a purpose. MJ didn't have themed albums until Janet started doing it. MJ didn't have a personal album until after Janet did it.

As I said before, the argument can be made that Janet didn't go indepth, with truly revealing lyrics, until after Mike's HIStory.

Concerning her life, Janet's storytelling was like Michael's in her music. She wrote stories that related to her life, but wrote them in away that told a story without actually giving specific details of the events as they happened.

It wasn't until after HIStory that she really dug deep with her lyrics in relation to her life.

Was she then "blatantly" influenced by Mike, and took from what he did?

Again, do you see how the argument can made for both (and legitimately)? And why it's silly to try and credit one over the other as being more "blatantly" influential to the others career?

[henrietta.]

Like always, TOF is against Austin to boost that post count

[ThatOtherFan]

Like always, TOF is against Austin to boost that post count

No, I'm not.

I didn't even start out "arguing" in this thread with Austineisha.

[henrietta.]

No, I'm not.

I didn't even start out "arguing" in this thread with Austineisha.

Yes you are and it's obvious

So...no matter what Austin says you're on the opposite side. He can talk about Janet's wardrobe malfunction, and you'd say she never had one just to have a "debate"

[ThatOtherFan]

Yes you are and it's obvious

So...no matter what Austin says you're on the opposite side. He can talk about Janet's wardrobe malfunction, and you'd say she never had one just to have a "debate"

I didn't even start out in this thread arguing/debating with Austineisha!

See how much you know, Hendrika!

[bu.]

Another active thread in the same section where TOF is being dragged.

[ThatOtherFan]

Another active thread in the same section where TOF is being dragged.

Sweetie, I never get dragged.

[henrietta.]

I didn't even start out in this thread arguing/debating with Austineisha!

See how much you know, Hendrika!

You don't in other threads, but it always end up with you trying to argue/debate with him to increase your post counts

[Mr. Wonder]

And all of that came as a result of Janet doing it. MJ began to formulate his albums as a means of telling a story the same way Janet did it. Themed albums? Janet did it first.

Once again, there's a CLEAR difference between being influenced by an artist, and working with the SAME people your sibling used for their projects AFTER they had worked with said people.

[ThatOtherFan]

You don't in other threads, but it always ends up with you trying to argue/debate with him to increase your post counts

I don't agrue with Austineisha to increase my post count.

It's not my fault that he's constantly wrong.

And all of that came as a result of Janet doing it. MJ began to formulate his albums as a means of telling a story the same way Janet did it. Themed albums? Janet did it first.

Not really...

For instance, Mike has always written about himself in his music and his views on the world. Concerning himself, he always wrote his lyrics in a way that you wouldn't necessarily know that he was talking about himself and that it actually related to his life. His most "well known" song (Billie Jean) is actually about himself, but he wrote in away that told a story without actually giving specific details of the events as they happened.

Kind of how Janet approached the story telling in her music Pre-VR.

Janet had more concept/themed albums, but the way they approached storytelling in their songs was very similar, until HIStory. When Mike went more deep and personal with his songs.

So again, does this mean that Janet was "blatantly" influenced by what Mike was doing and decided to replicate that with VR?

As I said, the argument for one being more blatantly influential can be made for both. The point I've been trying to make all along is that it's silly to do so...for BOTH MJ and JJ stans.

[Mr. Wonder]

Once again, there's a CLEAR difference between being influenced by an artist, and working with the SAME people your sibling used for their projects AFTER they had worked with said people.

Funny how you ignored this part TWICE.

[ThatOtherFan]

Funny how you ignored this part TWICE.

That point was covered with:

So again, does this mean that Janet was "blatantly" influenced by what Mike was doing and decided to replicate that with VR?

As I said, the argument for one being more blatantly influential can be made for both. The point I've been trying to make all along is that it's silly to do so...for BOTH MJ and JJ stans.

[bu.]

Sweetie, I never get dragged.

You do:

[henrietta.]

You do:

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[Mr. Wonder]

You do:

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[ThatOtherFan]

You do:

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[ThatOtherFan]

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[Mr. Wonder]

That point was covered with:

No. Janet never asked for MJ's video directors or producers. Not ONCE.

[Mr. Wonder]

[ThatOtherFan]

No. Janet never asked for MJ's video directors or producers. Not ONCE.

Yes. Those are examples of Michael being influenced by what Janet did, and as I stated and shown, there are just as many examples of Janet being influenced by what Mike did.

Hence:

As I said, the argument for one being more blatantly influential can be made for both. The point I've been trying to make all along is that it's silly to do so...for BOTH MJ and JJ stans.