Imma bout to snatch some straight MJ wigs with this...

[Twistedvelvet]

I'm sorry but this theory that Janet wanted to do military themes cause of captain eo is crap and only brought up cause Michael made it up on a rebuttal programme of his home movies, to take credit for RN, the work he wishes he created. I don't beliueve Janet has ever confirmed this as true, because....it isn't. It's just something mj fans latched on to.

Captain eo and RN is 4 years apart, not at the same time.

'Bad' was before RN, he could've done it then but he didn't, cause truth is he never thought about it until after RN.

There is nothing military about captain eo anyway. It's a movie of him in space with a bunch of puppets.

[ThatOtherFan]

I'm sorry but this theory that Janet wanted to do military themes cause if captain eo is crap and only brought up cause Michael made it up to take credit for RN, the work he wishes he created.

Captain eo and RN is 4 years apart, not at the same time.

'Bad' was before RN, he could've done it then but he didn't, cause truth us he never thought about it until after RN.

There us nothing military about captain eo anyway. It's a movie of him in space with a bunch of puppets.

Now Mike is lying...

Girl, let it go. They influenced each other.

[Mr. Wonder]

There is nothing military about captain eo anyway. It's a movie of him in space with a bunch of puppets.

:lmao: :lmao:

I've watch Captain EO and the only thing I see similar is the triangular formation, which is a standard formation in dance, and the marching. Aside from that, there's no similarities.

In regards to the military thing, none of them can really take the credit because in the home movies, MJ even said the style of dancing was becoming popular. Janet just took it mainstream, and created a template. Also, I believe TV is right in saying Janet never said she wanted to borrow the concept.

Pop stars, esp megastars, do challenge each other artistically and as a result competition is born. You think Control didn't raise the stakes for other females to step up their game? It's all unwarranted competition.

I think what TV and Dimpy are getting as is that Janet created a template from MJ. Similarly, MJ created a template and Janet borrowed bits and pieces from it. Subsequently, MJ started to borrow bits and pieces from that template. But MJ borrowed a little more from Janet than Janet did from MJ. Janet took MJ's idea in incorporating dance into her videos, but she carved her own niche out of it by taking it a step further by doing a full dance routine in a video. It could even be argued that Janet thematized dance. But some of that wouldn't have been possible without MJ's template.

It's like 51-49 in my eyes. MJ did borrow just a little more from Janet given the points TV outlined.

[ThatOtherFan]

I've watch Captain EO and the only thing I see similar is the triangular formation, which is a standard formation in dance, and the marching. Aside from that, there's no similarities.

In regards to the military thing, none of them can really take the credit because in the home movies, MJ even said the style of dancing was becoming popular. Janet just took it mainstream, and created a template. Also, I believe TV is right in saying Janet never said she wanted to borrow the concept.

Pop stars, esp megastars, do challenge each other artistically and as a result competition is born. You think Control didn't raise the stakes for other females to step up their game? It's all unwarranted competition.

I think what TV and Dimpy are getting as is that Janet created a template from MJ. Similarly, MJ created a template and Janet borrowed bits and pieces from it. Subsequently, MJ started to borrow bits and pieces from that template. But MJ borrowed a little more from Janet than Janet did from MJ. Janet took MJ's idea in incorporating dance into her videos, but she carved her own niche out of it by taking it a step further by doing a full dance routine in a video. It could even be argued that Janet thematized dance. But some of that wouldn't have been possible without MJ's template.

It's like 51-49 in my eyes. MJ did borrow just a little more from Janet given the points TV outlined.

I think Janet was inspired by the basis of what Mike did in Captain EO and wanted to apply that to Rhythm Nation, which is what I believe Janet told Mike. He then mentioned that he also planned to do something similar for his next project.

Mike did come off as trying to take some credit, but that's Mike...

I don't disagree that they influenced the other...where it becomes murky is in saying one influenced the other more. I've said it to MJ stans and JJ stans alike, that's silly...

There's is no denying Janet created her own niche, but there's is no denying that template came from Mike...so who gets "more" credit, the one who created their own niche, or the person that created the template? That's where it becomes murky and silly in trying to credit to one over the other.

They both influenced each others respective careers.

[Twistedvelvet]

Ask urself this, how many videos have u seen since 'control' with just dancing from start to finish, compared to videos with 10 min long stories..

Janets dance conceptual video format is definitely copied to a higher degree otherwise ud be seeing every video on MTV lasting 10 minutes and not 4 minutes with just dancing.

[ThatOtherFan]

Ask urself this, how many videos have u seen since 'control' with just dancing from start to finish, compared to videos with 10 min long stories..

Janets dance conceptual video format is definitely copied to a higher degree otherwise ud be seeing every video on MTV lasting 10 minutes and not 4 minutes with just dancing.

They both are the most influential artists in current popular music. As I just said, who gets more credit the person who created the template, or the person who created their own niche from that template?

And Mike was still successful and at his creative zenith when Janet was creating her own niche, which is why it's murky trying to give credit to one more than the other.

The media and the public give Mike more credit, but he was the bigger of the two, and he had to die before he started receiving the credit he deserved. Like Janet, the media had tried to write him out of the history books in the last years of his life...it's changed now, but he's not here to appreciate it.

[Mr. Wonder]

I think Janet was inspired by the basis of what Mike did in Captain EO and wanted to apply that to Rhythm Nation, which is what I believe Janet told Mike. He then mentioned that he also planned to do something similar for his next project.

Mike did come off as trying to take some credit, but that's Mike...

I don't disagree that they influenced the other...where it becomes murky is in saying one influenced the other more. I've said it to MJ stans and JJ stans alike, that's silly...

There's is no denying Janet created her own niche, but there's is no denying that template came from Mike...so who gets "more" credit, the one who created their own niche, or the person that created the template? That's where it becomes murky and silly in trying to credit to one over the other.

They both influenced each others respective careers.

I'm not sure if she has outright stated that the concept for RN came from CEO. I can't recall her saying that, but that's water under the bridge.

I'm just a bit more on the side with TV and Dimpy because Janet's influence on MJ is just bit more prevalent than MJ's influence on Janet. After Control, MJ did try to become a little more edgier with an attitude. "Bad", the song, is feisty, just like "Nasty". They both give attitude with a hint of vulnerability. Janet never went as far as using MJ's producers or being inspired by his works to the point where it's almost like a "Part II" of one of his albums. Or even hiring previous video directors MJ had worked with. I see your points in that they both took bits and pieces from each other. But there's just a bit more evidence to support the argument for Janet. I think Art even said MJ asked Jimmy and Terry to produce Dangerous. I would need to see some receipts before that can be valid though.

I would even throw in Janet influencing MJ on how to use the album. First, Janet presented each album with a different theme. Control - independence, RN1814 - societal issues, etc. Something I don't really see in MJ's pre-Control albums, correct me if I'm wrong. She also used the album to showcase who she is as a person and what she stands for. Empowerment, sexuality, the need for change, confronting yourself, etc. There's also storytelling that Janet employed in her albums. You get to know Janet by listening to her albums. Again something I don't really hear in MJ's pre-Control albums. Both those presentations resonate in Dangerous and HIStory. In Dangerous MJ tackles societal issues, racism, etc. HIStory is his most revealing album and you get to know MJ as a person. That's something that Janet influenced MJ to do, just for argument's sake.

[Mr. Wonder]

Ask urself this, how many videos have u seen since 'control' with just dancing from start to finish, compared to videos with 10 min long stories..

Janets dance conceptual video format is definitely copied to a higher degree otherwise ud be seeing every video on MTV lasting 10 minutes and not 4 minutes with just dancing.

Not quite. It's equal here.

Thriller merge film and video. MJ thematized the music video. There are story lines in videos now because of that. We see this in videos such as "Bad Romance" and "Man Down".

Whereas a video like PP created the template of a start-to-finish dance routine and fully choreographed. We see this in videos such as "Single Ladies" and "I'm A Slave 4 U".

[ThatOtherFan]

I'm not sure if she has outright stated that the concept for RN came from CEO. I can't recall her saying that, but that's water under the bridge.

I'm just a bit more on the side with TV and Dimpy because Janet's influence on MJ is just bit more prevalent than MJ's influence on Janet. After Control, MJ did try to become a little more edgier with an attitude. "Bad", the song, is feisty, just like "Nasty". They both give attitude with a hint of vulnerability. Janet never went as far as using MJ's producers or being inspired by his works to the point where it's almost like a "Part II" of one of his albums. Or even hiring previous video directors MJ had worked with. I see your points in that they both took bits and pieces from each other. But there's just a bit more evidence to support the argument for Janet. I think Art even said MJ asked Jimmy and Terry to produce Dangerous. I would need to see some receipts before that can be valid though.

I would even throw in Janet influencing MJ on how to use the album. First, Janet presented each album with a different theme. Control - independence, RN1814 - societal issues, etc. Something I don't really see in MJ's pre-Control albums, correct me if I'm wrong. She also used the album to showcase who she is as a person and what she stands for. Empowerment, sexuality, the need for change, confronting yourself, etc. There's also storytelling that Janet employed in her albums. You get to know Janet by listening to her albums. Again something I don't really hear in MJ's pre-Control albums. But those presentations resonate in Dangerous and HIStory. In Dangerous MJ tackles societal issues, racism, etc. HIStory is his most revealing album and you get to know MJ as a person. That's something that Janet influenced MJ to do, just for argument's sake.

I don't think the concept came from it at all, I think just the foundation of what was done in Captain EO. Janet took that foundation and basis to a whole other level.

One can argue Mike's influence on Janet is more prevalent since, she did create her own niche, but it's from the template and blueprint Mike established. Also, as I've mentioned Mike was at his creative zenith while Janet was creating her own niche, so it's silly to dismiss all of that to say she influenced him more, etc.

Of course Janet influenced Mike's post-Control projects, that is the point. She not only carved her own niche, but created her own template in the industry (which influenced Mike). You just can't dismiss or negate the fact that Janet's template came from the influence and blueprint that Mike established and continue to tweak in the following years.

Also, HIStory was inspired by the hell Mike had just experienced in life. I think that had less to do with Janet's influence...and more to do with him trying to get out the anger, pain, and frustration he felt. Along with trying to tell his side of the story in the best way he could, through his music.

[Twistedvelvet]

Not quite. It's equal here.

Thriller merge film and video. MJ thematized the music video. There are story lines in videos now because of that. We see this in videos such as "Bad Romance" and "Man Down".

Whereas a video like PP created the template of a start-to-finish dance routine and fully choreographed. We see this in videos such as "Single Ladies" and "I'm A Slave 4 U".

@ 'bad romance' having a storyline. The video is directed by the same guy that did 'son of a gun'. That video is what gaga tried to copy.

There are way more videos with janets blueprint, than Michaels.

[henrietta.]

:lmao: :lmao:

I've watch Captain EO and the only thing I see similar is the triangular formation, which is a standard formation in dance, and the marching. Aside from that, there's no similarities.

In regards to the military thing, none of them can really take the credit because in the home movies, MJ even said the style of dancing was becoming popular. Janet just took it mainstream, and created a template. Also, I believe TV is right in saying Janet never said she wanted to borrow the concept.

Pop stars, esp megastars, do challenge each other artistically and as a result competition is born. You think Control didn't raise the stakes for other females to step up their game? It's all unwarranted competition.

I think what TV and Dimpy are getting as is that Janet created a template from MJ. Similarly, MJ created a template and Janet borrowed bits and pieces from it. Subsequently, MJ started to borrow bits and pieces from that template. But MJ borrowed a little more from Janet than Janet did from MJ. Janet took MJ's idea in incorporating dance into her videos, but she carved her own niche out of it by taking it a step further by doing a full dance routine in a video. It could even be argued that Janet thematized dance. But some of that wouldn't have been possible without MJ's template.

It's like 51-49 in my eyes. MJ did borrow just a little more from Janet given the points TV outlined.

Chile MJ tried to "borrow" Janet's whole template.

[ThatOtherFan]

Chile MJ tried to "borrow" Janet's whole template.

Shut up, Hendrika.

[Escapade]

LOL at the title of this thread alone

[henrietta.]

Shut up, Hendrika.

Nope

[ThatOtherFan]

Nope

[henrietta.]

[ThatOtherFan]

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[Idrag4mj]

rolls :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Jodienda76]

OH FOR FUCKS SAKE...JANET AND MICHAEL FANS NEED TO GET THE FUCK OVER IT ALREADY!

[Twistedvelvet]

I love Michael. Always been a fan. Just think people get it wrong when they give Janet no credit and act like she only famous cause of Michael.

[dimpy]

Okay, I don't think TOF is getting the point. I'll reiterate, I never said one influenced one more than the other - that's not the argument. The argument is that Mike took from J, again, in more obvious and concrete ways, not just vague "inspiration," it's things you can see and calculate...like all the things we've stated before. I'm not saying she inspired him more than he inspired her. In fact, she was probably more inspired by Mike than he was her, in the vague sense of the word. But that doesn't change that Mike took more from his sister than she did him. I feel like his influence on her mostly helped create some of her drive, and will to be seen independently as an artist - if anything, his influence/inspiration on her helped her to break free and BE seen as an artist on her own, whereas MJ's is seen in a completely different way.

What you're talking about with MJ's influence on videos is absolutely true, but this doesn't just apply to Janet - it applies to the whole industry, so everyone who did music videos was going off his template. I'm talking about influence on the other person. She made videos her own and REALLY incorporated the whole dance as a theme. I mean...RN was completely choreography - no story, the story was in the song. He never did that before - she took it to the next level. And yes, he revolutionized the face of videos, but that doesn't change the fact that the Black or White panther dance is the EXACT same idea as Janet's The Knowledge video. It's blatant. Just because he created the template doesn't mean he couldn't take from Janet's niche that she created.

And with the Rhythm Nation/Captain EO thing...people really take it too far. Mike didn't choreograph it, he wasn't on the set, he wasn't talking in her ear the whole time. It really seems pretty obvious that the only thing they spoke about was in regards to doing military style dancing, which was already on the rise. She wanted to make sure he wasn't going to be doing it, and they were discussing ideas. He didn't GIVE them to her, she came to HIM with the ideas.

I would never dismiss Michael's creativity during Dangerous, it's my favorite album. But it doesn't change the fact that he took from Janet in some very obvious ways. It's not taking anything away from him or the album - it's just a fact.

This said it perfectly too, btw:

I would even throw in Janet influencing MJ on how to use the album. First, Janet presented each album with a different theme. Control - independence, RN1814 - societal issues, etc. Something I don't really see in MJ's pre-Control albums, correct me if I'm wrong. She also used the album to showcase who she is as a person and what she stands for. Empowerment, sexuality, the need for change, confronting yourself, etc. There's also storytelling that Janet employed in her albums. You get to know Janet by listening to her albums. Again something I don't really hear in MJ's pre-Control albums. Both those presentations resonate in Dangerous and HIStory. In Dangerous MJ tackles societal issues, racism, etc. HIStory is his most revealing album and you get to know MJ as a person. That's something that Janet influenced MJ to do, just for argument's sake.

Of course MJ stans will be in a tizzy, but these are facts. And at least for me, I'm in no way dissing or discrediting ANYTHING he's done. These are just things I've noticed for a long time, and they ARE there, to deny that they are is just...blind.

[ThatOtherFan]

Okay, I don't think TOF is getting the point. I'll reiterate, I never said one influenced one more than the other - that's not the argument. The argument is that Mike took from J, again, in more obvious and concrete ways, not just vague "inspiration," it's things you can see and calculate...like all the things we've stated before.

But by saying this, you are in fact saying that he is more influenced by what she did.

Saying the Mike took more from Janet in more obvious and concrete ways is saying he was more influenced by her. Whether that is your intent or not.

What you're talking about with MJ's influence on videos is absolutely true, but this doesn't just apply to Janet - it applies to the whole industry, so everyone who did music videos was going off his template. I'm talking about influence on the other person. She made videos her own and REALLY incorporated the whole dance as a theme. I mean...RN was completely choreography - no story, the story was in the song. He never did that before - she took it to the next level. And yes, he revolutionized the face of videos, but that doesn't change the fact that the Black or White panther dance is the EXACT same idea as Janet's The Knowledge video. It's blatant. Just because he created the template doesn't mean he couldn't take from Janet's niche that she created.

I have said that he was influenced by and used things from the niche and template Janet created.

The point I've made is that you can't really say one influenced the other more, or that one "took more blatantly from the other" because who get's more credit, the person who created the template or the person that established their own niche from said template?

Also, as I said prior, even when Janet was establishing and creating her own niche, Michael was still in his creative zenith and still tweaking the template he established.

Therefore, they were influenced by and taking from each other.

And with the Rhythm Nation/Captain EO thing...people really take it too far. Mike didn't choreograph it, he wasn't on the set, he wasn't talking in her ear the whole time. It really seems pretty obvious that the only thing they spoke about was in regards to doing military style dancing, which was already on the rise. She wanted to make sure he wasn't going to be doing it, and they were discussing ideas. He didn't GIVE them to her, she came to HIM with the ideas.

People do take that too far, however, my only point was that they had same idea at the exact same time. If you remember, the original post portrayed the situation as if Mike saw Janet's RN and began incorporating that into his act. I brought up Captain EO NOT say Janet "copied it" or even "borrowed from it", but merely to show that they had the exact same idea at the exact same time. Mike wanted to introduce more military themed things into his work, and Janet inspired by the basis of what she had seen in EO, had the same idea in mind.

I would never dismiss Michael's creativity during Dangerous, it's my favorite album. But it doesn't change the fact that he took from Janet in some very obvious ways. It's not taking anything away from him or the album - it's just a fact.

It is dismissing his creativity during "Dangerous" and virtually everything else. You're essentially saying Janet took from Mike in "vague" ways to establish her own niche, while Michael blatantly began taking from the niche Janet was creating. That basically dismisses everything he did post-control as him taking from Janet.

That is silly.

Of course MJ stans will be in a tizzy, but these are facts. And at least for me, I'm in no way dissing or discrediting ANYTHING he's done. These are just things I've noticed for a long time, and they ARE there, to deny that they are is just...blind.

It's not JUST the MJ stans, it's the JJ stans too. Which is what I've eluded to in this thread. I've seen these same types of discussion in BOTH fan communities..and it's stupid for BOTH fan communities. They were brother and sister and they both influenced the other. Simple as that. Trying to break it down and say one "blatantly took more" from the other is just semantics, and silly.

[Twistedvelvet]

Michael is too cute in that gif.

[dimpy]

TOF, you are misconstruing the meaning of influence here. Someone can be influenced by another and do something ENTIRELY different, or they can be influenced and do something incredibly similar, ie Michael with Janet.

And if you think that's taking away from Dangerous. Okay. That's your opinion, not mine.

[Reyna ♔]

Looks like my brother has a great handle on this. No need for me to interject