ROUND 3 IS HERE!!! .. WHO'S THE BETTER SINGER

[HollyHood]

Kelis. Not even close.

[LyricalLesson]

Make sure you vote in the poll section Holly! Kelis needs to make a damn comeback, Mya does not deserve to be beating her!

GREAT vocal!!!

[ThatOtherFan]

All Im saying is it was BEYONCE'S TIME.PERIOD ..she outshined them because it was DESTINED.It was already written in the stars -if you will For you to act like Murder Inc situation really fucked up things for Ashanti is still not connecting. It would only make sense if SHE had stopped promoting due to all that drama..but she was promoting as much as Beyonce was.The machine behind Ashanti had never stopped. And Imma need receipts of when all this Murder Inc issue started taking place because I could have swore it was alot later..towards the end of her era.She ahad alread sold the bulk of what she was gonna sell.

You have remember when Beyonce came along it was HUGE,not Thriller..but she came in a big way. The bitch is a GREAT performer and ppl simply traded in their Ashanti card for a Beyonce card. Like honestly,if you go see one live,which would you go to? Im not gonna be content with a lil bag of peanuts if its candy galore to my right.

I'm not arguing that wasn't and isn't Beyonce's time to shine...I'm saying it's silly to say she dismantled careers with her success, when that simply wasn't the case.

The machine behind Ashanti did stop though, which ultimately hurt her and she hasn't yet recovered from it (if she ever does at all). The issues at Murder inc started just after Chapter II and in the midst of Ashanti's following project.

Beyonce's debut was huge, but the industry didn't center around her solo debut (as her stans would have us believe). It was big album, but she didn't shut down the game. She's not responsible for ending careers, that's just ludicrous.

I'm only here for live performances by Janet or Mike, and since MJ is no longer with us, that leaves Janet. Seriously.... of the "popstars" or mainstream acts there are few that I want and would pay to see. I would go see Bey, but only if someone else paid for the ticket. lol

[moonlight]

Mya . Its a shame. I really would have like to seen her 3rd album be a success.

[janetDAYZ]

WHATEVER D!

Fuck this fuckin' poll

I have an idea for your next one if you haven't thought of one yet

PM me ...

[TwistedElegance™]

Kelis by faaaaaaaar.

[janetDAYZ]

I'm not arguing that wasn't and isn't Beyonce's time to shine...I'm saying it's silly to say she dismantled careers with her success, when that simply wasn't the case.

The machine behind Ashanti did stop though, which ultimately hurt her and she hasn't yet recovered from it (if she ever does at all). The issues at Murder inc started just after Chapter II and in the midst of Ashanti's following project.

Beyonce's debut was huge, but the industry didn't center around her solo debut (as her stans would have us believe). It was big album, but she didn't shut down the game. She's not responsible for ending careers, that's just ludicrous.

I'm only here for live performances by Janet or Mike, and since MJ is no longer with us, that leaves Janet. Seriously.... of the "popstars" or mainstream acts there are few that I want and would pay to see. I would go see Bey, but only if someone else paid for the ticket. lol

You keep relying on Ashanti's momentary popularity to overshadow the bigger picture that you're actually missing. She was an "It" girl for the moment. We get those in the industry ever so often..so lets not PRETEND. You wanna talk about Beyonce not being a force to be reckoned with..Ashanti CERTAINLY was not,on ANY LEVEL :lmao: She didn't sustain because she's limited,PERIOD. The decline of interest in her was gonna see its way anyway,Beyonce being present or not but with Beyonce present it only made it WORSE! It was definately over for her. Ashanti had her "It" girl moment...stop acting like she would still be killing the game right now if it wasn't for Murder's bullshit. :lol:

The reason that Bey's stans can claim she ended careers was because none of her prey has yet to recover.The only bitch to be unaffected by Beyonce was Alicia because she has her OWN lane that even Beyonce can't fuck with. Alicia found her groove.Beyonce cant shake that..no matter how many pussy pops and drops she tries to do. And think about it..there's a reason why Beyonce is still one of the TOP bitches in the game 8 years later. So to say she's not a force is (in your words)LUDICROUS. You can't deny what history writes. We all know Beyonce's fan act like she's the second coming of Michael,trust..they get on my nerves as well. I've had to check a couple of youngins on twitter actually saying that shit. I let it be known there have been MANY of huge artistic artists who have dominated before Beyonce even had her first period. But your hate towards her stans and their claims seem to really get to you. We all know the truth but you still cant ignore facts and how the cards were dealt and played. Beyonce played a damn good hand. Meanwhile Ashanti and them had to FOLD

[moonlight]

In reference to IJanet & ThatOtherFan What are your thoughts on the decline of all the other R&B chicks. Ive always said its like a cycle imo (with the exception of those like Bey & Alicia etc...)

[janetDAYZ]

In reference to IJanet & ThatOtherFan What are your thoughts on the decline of all the other R&B chicks. Ive always said its like a cycle imo (with the exception of those like Bey & Alicia etc...)

I say this. As far as that saying "Its room for everyone to succeed"..doesn't seem as prevalent today as it once did, now does it? With the overall decline in music sales,period...pure r&b was never a front runner to begin with.So now that sales are on the decline as a whole...So naturally....all r&b acts (not just the women) are gonna fade into the background. The world of r&b is very limited. In order to be huge you have to have pop elements or just simply fuse r&b and pop together Like Janet did. I feel we're at a point to where the TOP CHICKS out hold the field for every genre we're looking for. It seems we've elected who we want to bring us what we want.We expect Bee to hold these genre's down,Gaga for this genre,Brit for this and Rihanna for that. And they're covering all the fields..so its like what do we need with these lessors if those 4 are covering all bases?

[RedSimba]

At first I thought why we doing Disney characters now... then I saw the pic. Mýa gets my vote

[ThatOtherFan]

You keep relying on Ashanti's momentary popularity to overshadow the bigger picture that you're actually missing. She was an "It" girl for the moment. We get those in the industry ever so often..so lets not PRETEND. You wanna talk about Beyonce not being a force to be reckoned with..Ashanti CERTAINLY was not,on ANY LEVEL :lmao: She didn't sustain because she's limited,PERIOD. The decline of interest in her was gonna see its way anyway,Beyonce being present or not but with Beyonce present it only made it WORSE! It was definately over for her. Ashanti had her "It" girl moment...stop acting like she would still be killing the game right now if it wasn't for Murder's bullshit. :lol:

The reason that Bey's stans can claim she ended careers was because none of her prey has yet to recover.The only bitch to be unaffected by Beyonce was Alicia because she has her OWN lane that even Beyonce can't fuck with. Alicia found her groove.Beyonce cant shake that..no matter how many pussy pops and drops she tries to do. And think about it..there's a reason why Beyonce is still one of the TOP bitches in the game 8 years later. So to say she's not a force is (in your words)LUDICROUS. You can't deny what history writes. We all know Beyonce's fan act like she's the second coming of Michael,trust..they get on my nerves as well. I've had to check a couple of youngins on twitter actually saying that shit. I let it be known there have been MANY of huge artistic artists who have dominated before Beyonce even had her first period. But your hate towards her stans and their claims seem to really get to you. We all know the truth but you still cant ignore facts and how the cards were dealt and played. Beyonce played a damn good hand. Meanwhile Ashanti and them had to FOLD

Again, Ashanti's career slowed down at the same point that Murder Inc went through their issues. Which of course hurt or hindered the artists on their label... So yes Ashanti's success was momentary, but you can't say what would have happened if Ashanti had a leveled playing field. That level playing field being a label that could truly support her and wasn't dealing being dissolved completely and it's owner possibly put in jail...and Ashanti was the "it" girl until just after the point I mentioned...so it goes back to what I was saying, if there was "leveled playing field" you can say what would have happened.

Again, Beyonce did NOT enter the game with her equivalent of "Thriller" and destroy the game. She had a big year upon her first solo release, but she DID NOT dominate the charts and sell 40 million out the gate. That would've "destroyed careers" and kept others from finding a footing, because that would be true domination. That would hamper the others girls in the game. That's not what happened.

Again, careers falter all of the time in the music industry...I mean if you really want me to break it down

Brandy - had issues selling BEFORE Beyonce released a solo project.

Monica - released a few tracks that didn't catch on, went back retooled released "After The Storm" which was a hit DURING the time of Beyonce's first solo release (infact I just looked it up, they actually released the same damn month lol)

Ashanti - has been discussed enough lol

Janet - Had just come off the AFY era...was about to go through the aftermath of the SB mess.

The stans and you are attributing things unrelated to Beyonce's success. There truly is room for everybody, if that weren't the case there would be no Rihanna or Alicia

[ThatOtherFan]

In reference to IJanet & ThatOtherFan What are your thoughts on the decline of all the other R&B chicks. Ive always said its like a cycle imo (with the exception of those like Bey & Alicia etc...)

I agree it goes in cycles, careers have low points all the time for various different reasons.

[henrietta.]

Again, Ashanti's career slowed down at the same point that Murder Inc went through their issues. Which of course hurt or hindered the artists on their label... So yes Ashanti's success was momentary, but you can't say what would have happened if Ashanti had a leveled playing field. That level playing field being a label that could truly support her and wasn't dealing being dissolved completely and it's owner possibly put in jail...and Ashanti was the "it" girl until just after the point I mentioned...so it goes back to what I was saying, if there was "leveled playing field" you can say what would have happened.

Again, Beyonce did NOT enter the game with her equivalent of "Thriller" and destroy the game. She had a big year upon her first solo release, but she DID NOT dominate the charts and sell 40 million out the gate. That would've "destroyed careers" and kept others from finding a footing, because that would be true domination. That would hamper the others girls in the game. That's not what happened.

Again, careers falter all of the time in the music industry...I mean if you really want me to break it down

Brandy - had issues selling BEFORE Beyonce released a solo project.

Monica - released a few tracks that didn't catch on, went back retooled released "After The Storm" which was a hit DURING the time of Beyonce's first solo release (infact I just looked it up, they actually released the same damn month lol)

Ashanti - has been discussed enough lol

Janet - Had just come off the AFY era...was about to go through the aftermath of the SB mess.

The stans and you are attributing things unrelated to Beyonce's success. There truly is room for everybody, if that weren't the case there would be no Rihanna or Alicia

Chile stop:

Ashanti's career was ended when both she and Beyonce performed at the BET Awards, and no one can seem to remember that Ashanti performed right after Bey. Ashanti's 2002 album went about 3 times platinum in the States, but Hurricane Bey came and took the attention away and had Ashanti's 2003 album only hitting platinum once...I'm not here for fake FBI Investigations and other claims that came out to explain why she didn't sell as much as her debut after it was clear Beyonce took her spot.

I don't even see why you mentioned Janet...she's not solely R&B.

Brandy put herself in hasbeen land

[janetDAYZ]

Again, Ashanti's career slowed down at the same point that Murder Inc went through their issues. Which of course hurt or hindered the artists on their label... So yes Ashanti's success was momentary, but you can't say what would have happened if Ashanti had a leveled playing field. That level playing field being a label that could truly support her and wasn't dealing being dissolved completely and it's owner possibly put in jail...and Ashanti was the "it" girl until just after the point I mentioned...so it goes back to what I was saying, if there was "leveled playing field" you can say what would have happened.

Again, Beyonce did NOT enter the game with her equivalent of "Thriller" and destroy the game. She had a big year upon her first solo release, but she DID NOT dominate the charts and sell 40 million out the gate. That would've "destroyed careers" and kept others from finding a footing, because that would be true domination. That would hamper the others girls in the game. That's not what happened.

Again, careers falter all of the time in the music industry...I mean if you really want me to break it down

Brandy - had issues selling BEFORE Beyonce released a solo project.

Monica - released a few tracks that didn't catch on, went back retooled released "After The Storm" which was a hit DURING the time of Beyonce's first solo release (infact I just looked it up, they actually released the same damn month lol)

Ashanti - has been discussed enough lol

Janet - Had just come off the AFY era...was about to go through the aftermath of the SB mess.

The stans and you are attributing things unrelated to Beyonce's success. There truly is room for everybody, if that weren't the case there would be no Rihanna or Alicia

TOF ...lets do this again. Level playing field or NOT. Beyonce murders her in EVERY AREA..so let's NOT! Stop making it like Ashanti was some force.She was HYPE..thats it,thats all FOLKS!SNAP OUT OF IT!!!!Jesus himself wouldn't even have been able to make Ashanti a lasting leading lady. You STILL have yet to give me receipts showing that Murder's shit was actually during Ashati's FULL ERA ..Im STIL WAITING ON THAT. If you can't supply the receipts to even remotely somewhat back up your claim,then your shit falls on deaf ears,completely.THE END (until I see receipts)

And I already said it wasnt as BIG a Thiller..but it was THE "MUST HAVE" ALBUM THAT YEAR,PERIOD.PERIOD,PERIOD,PERIOD. There's not a damn thing Ashanti could have done REGARDLESS. It was her time...it was her time..it was her TIME. So let that Murder excuse shit go. And the funny thing is I already presented the quotes of even Ashanti and Irv bowing DOWN to Bee's era. THey didn't even use any excuses,but ironically your are. They simply said it was Bee's year and her "new found" sound was dominating. That was a train they couldn't catch up with.END OF STORY.

Everything was BEYONCe,BEYONCE,BEYONCE ...no one was worried about these other bitches -where were you?

Brandy and Janet aren't relevant to this conversation. I never said she ended Brandy's career...Brandy lost her mojo on her own BUT Beyonce being present in the game now is INDEED affecting Brandy's repeated efforts of tryna REVIVE her career(in one way or another) because Beyonce is newer and has enough talent to where it leaves ppl wondering "Well,what da hell do we need with a Brandy?"

Monica..had a top 10 hit with "So Gone"..the first release after her regrouping stage. And I believe "Knock Knock" did fair on the charts. But AFTER THE STORM is not considered a hit on ANY kind of level.I dunno where you are getting that from.It sold even less than Ashanti's Chapter II. Mya had good singles but you cant come up with a good explanation on why nothing happened with her album? What do you think happened. Beyonce simply OUTSHINED. No one gave a fuck about a Mya at that point. You have to keep in mind..Beyonce was like a breathe of fresh air. We already seen wut all these other girls could do and have done. Its a combination of the fact that their careers starting aging along with Beyonce coming on the scene is what gave all of their careers the KNOCK OUT PUNCH!

And Mya,Beyonce,Ashanti and Monica..all released within a week of each other,Im aware. They were all going HEAD TO HEAD

As far as Alicia and Rihanna? *go see my response to LEGENDS last post*

[ThatOtherFan]

Chile stop:

Ashanti's career was ended when both she and Beyonce performed at the BET Awards, and no one can seem to remember that Ashanti performed right after Bey. Ashanti's 2002 album went about 3 times platinum in the States, but Hurricane Bey came and took the attention away and had Ashanti's 2003 album only hitting platinum once...I'm not here for fake FBI Investigations and other claims that came out to explain why she didn't sell as much as her debut after it was clear Beyonce took her spot.

I don't even see why you mentioned Janet...she's not solely R&B.

Brandy put herself in hasbeen land

Stay out of this Hendrika...you're just looking to co-sign somebody's post.

I answered all of this in my reply to dayz

TOF ...lets do this again. Level playing field or NOT. Beyonce murders her in EVERY AREA..so let's NOT! Stop making it like Ashanti was some force.She was HYPE..thats it,thats all FOLKS!SNAP OUT OF IT!!!!Jesus himself wouldn't even have been able to make Ashanti a lasting leading lady. You STILL have yet to give me receipts showing that Murder's shit was actually during Ashati's FULL ERA ..Im STIL WAITING ON THAT. If you can't supply the receipts to even remotely somewhat back up your claim,then your shit falls on deaf ears,completely.THE END (until I see receipts)

And I already said it wasnt as BIG a Thiller..but it was THE "MUST HAVE" ALBUM THAT YEAR,PERIOD.PERIOD,PERIOD,PERIOD. There's not a damn thing Ashanti could have done REGARDLESS. It was her time...it was her time..it was her TIME. So let that Murder excuse shit go. And the funny thing is I already presented the quotes of even Ashanti and Irv bowing DOWN to Bee's era. THey didn't even use any excuses,but ironically your are. They simply said it was Bee's year and her "new found" sound was dominating. That was a train they couldn't catch up with.END OF STORY.

Everything was BEYONCe,BEYONCE,BEYONCE ...no one was worried about these other bitches -where were you?

Brandy and Janet aren't relevant to this conversation. I never said she ended Brandy's career...Brandy lost her mojo on her own BUT Beyonce being present in the game now is INDEED affecting Brandy's repeated efforts of tryna REVIVE her career(in one way or another) because Beyonce is newer and has enough talent to where it leaves ppl wondering "Well,what da hell do we need with a Brandy?"

Monica..had a top 10 hit with "So Gone"..the first release after her regrouping stage. And I believe "Knock Knock" did fair on the charts. But AFTER THE STORM is not considered a hit on ANY kind of level.I dunno where you are getting that from.It sold even less than Ashanti's Chapter II. Mya had good singles but you cant come up with a good explanation on why nothing happened with her album? What do you think happened. Beyonce simply OUTSHINED. No one gave a fuck about a Mya at that point. You have to keep in mind..Beyonce was like a breathe of fresh air. We already seen wut all these other girls could do and have done. Its a combination of the fact that their careers starting aging along with Beyonce coming on the scene is what gave all of their careers the KNOCK OUT PUNCH!

And Mya,Beyonce,Ashanti and Monica..all released within a week of each other,Im aware. They were all going HEAD TO HEAD

As far as Alicia and Rihanna? *go see my response to LEGENDS last post*

Lesser talent artists have sustained careers all the time...Britney Spears anyone?

Also, we aren't arguing about whether Beyonce had a big album. That's a given from one look at the stats... we're arguing over whether her arrival as a solo artist "killed" careers. The answer to that is no...

Beyonce being the better performer (which she obviously is, along with having better stage presence) has nothing to do with it. It's called the music BUSINESS for a reason. In the end, it's a business. Sometimes the audience moves on from an artist (it happens all the time), and sometimes things on the business end fucks up the artists career (this also happens all the time). Ashanti had two things working against her the drama at Murder Inc and the fact that the working relationship between her and Irv turned sour.

The FBI raided Murder Inc in January 2003 (I'm not sure when Irv and company were formally charged though)

Irv's trial began in Nov of 2005 and he was acquitted in Dec of 2005.

Inc was dropped from it's parent label Universal Music Group/Def Jam in 2005 and the label was with out a home/major distributor from that point until the end of 2006.

All of this played a role in Ashanti's career, whether you want to admit it or not. I'm not saying she would be on "Beyonce's level" I'm saying you don't know what could have happened if Ashanti had a leveled playing field. That drama effected her career. I'm saying Beyonce's solo career didn't kill Ashanti's career...

Janet is irrelevant to this conversation, yes...The only reason I mentioned her previously was in reference to the time when Beyonce's first solo effort dropped. Janet's AFY era was over and she was less than a year away from the SB drama.

...and you did mention Brandy in the list of people Beyonce supposedly muscled out of the industry. That wasn't the case. She had issues selling prior to Beyonce's first solo effort. What happened to her had NOTHING to do with Beyonce.

As for Monica, the "After The Storm" project was a hit for her. Platinum with two or three singles that performed well on the R&B charts (Monica has never scanned over 2 million copies in the us, and the most she's ever shipped is 3 million of an album). Once again, Beyonce's solo success had no effect on her.

My whole point in this is you and her stans are giving her credit for something she did not do.

Also, as for you comments to Legend...

I say this. As far as that saying "Its room for everyone to succeed"..doesn't seem as prevalent today as it once did, now does it? With the overall decline in music sales,period...pure r&b was never a front runner to begin with.So now that sales are on the decline as a whole...So naturally....all r&b acts (not just the women) are gonna fade into the background. The world of r&b is very limited. In order to be huge you have to have pop elements or just simply fuse r&b and pop together Like Janet did. I feel we're at a point to where the TOP CHICKS out hold the field for every genre we're looking for. It seems we've elected who we want to bring us what we want.We expect Bee to hold these genre's down,Gaga for this genre,Brit for this and Rihanna for that. And they're covering all the fields..so its like what do we need with these lessors if those 4 are covering all bases?

That is your answer to what has and is happening to many acts in R&B and that has little to do with Beyonce.

Also, it's ALWAYS been that way:

Janet - The QUEEN of Pop and R&B

Madonna - I don't know her...

Whitney and Mariah - Who were both considered "The voices"

Even with the "top girls" ruling there was always room for everybody to have success, that hasn't changed. It goes in cycles as Legend says

[henrietta.]

Stay out of this Hendrika...you're just looking to co-sign somebody's post.

I answered all of this in my reply to dayz

Stating and acknowledging the truth doesn't equal co-signing. However trying to ignore the truth and come up with excuses equals being delusional and reaching

[janetDAYZ]

Stay out of this Hendrika...you're just looking to co-sign somebody's post.

I answered all of this in my reply to dayz

Lesser talent artists have sustained careers all the time...Britney Spears anyone?

Also, we aren't arguing about whether Beyonce had a big album. That's a given from one look at the stats... we're arguing over whether her arrival as a solo artist "killed" careers. The answer to that is no...

Beyonce being the better performer (which she obviously is, along with having better stage presence) has nothing to do with it. It's called the music BUSINESS for a reason. In the end, it's a business. Sometimes the audience moves on from an artist (it happens all the time), and sometimes things on the business end fucks up the artists career (this also happens all the time). Ashanti had two things working against her the drama at Murder Inc and the fact that the working relationship between her and Irv turned sour.

The FBI raided Murder Inc in January 2003 (I'm not sure when Irv and company were formally charged though)

Irv's trial began in Nov of 2005 and he was acquitted in Dec of 2005.

Inc was dropped from it's parent label Universal Music Group/Def Jam in 2005 and the label was with out a home/major distributor from that point until the end of 2006.

All of this played a role in Ashanti's career, whether you want to admit it or not. I'm not saying she would be on "Beyonce's level" I'm saying you don't know what could have happened if Ashanti had a leveled playing field. That drama effected her career. I'm saying Beyonce's solo career didn't kill Ashanti's career...

Janet is irrelevant to this conversation, yes...The only reason I mentioned her previously was in reference to the time when Beyonce's first solo effort dropped. Janet's AFY era was over and she was less than a year away from the SB drama.

...and you did mention Brandy in the list of people Beyonce supposedly muscled out of the industry. That wasn't the case. She had issues selling prior to Beyonce's first solo effort. What happened to her had NOTHING to do with Beyonce.

As for Monica, the "After The Storm" project was a hit for her. Platinum with two or three singles that performed well on the R&B charts (Monica has never scanned over 2 million copies in the us, and the most she's ever shipped is 3 million of an album). Once again, Beyonce's solo success had no effect on her.

My whole point in this is you and her stans are giving her credit for something she did not do.

Also, as for you comments to Legend...

That is your answer to what has and is happening to many acts in R&B and that has little to do with Beyonce.

Also, it's ALWAYS been that way:

Janet - The QUEEN of Pop and R&B

Madonna - I don't know her...

Whitney and Mariah - Who were both considered "The voices"

Even with the "top girls" ruling there was always room for everybody to have success, that hasn't changed. It goes in cycles as Legend says

Oh..TOF..TOF..TOF ...my child

You are sooooo determined to make Ashanti be something she simply isn't,wasn't and NEVER will be. :lmao: Tell me,why would we need an Ashanti..if we have a Beyonce? Two black girls,same age..Beyonce took over that spot..and thats it! Deal with it! Like Henri said...you are relying so much on that Murder Inc situation. TOF...they were raided in January.NOTHING STOPPED ASHANTI FROM PROMOTING. how many times do I have to say this. The public heard about the raid and that was it! No one was contemplating over it...they were under investigation and thats it. Investigations go on privately w/o a sound.The public was not focused on it..and Irv kept running his company as if no raid had happen. Irv was actually cocky as if "they can investigate..they wont find shit".He was unfazed..therefore..it didn't affect his work or his label. The ball was still rolling. What are you not understanding. If Ashanti is still promoting the album...then how is she being affected? You are still not making sense. Now if that shit went down and we didnt see Ashantt promoting ..then you would have a point!.. BUT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY. You're trying to create a scenario. Keep in mind. Irv and Ashanti were on a mission to ride out becuz they seen Beyonce was bout to claim the new "it" girl spot. Thats why they structured every promo avenue they had for Ashanti to be parallel to Beyonce's. They made sure to book and schedule Ashanti for every show that Beyonce was doing. They were in the race! That investigation DID NOT stop them from handling business..what are they suppose to do..twiddle their thumbs while they wait?? Investigations are lengthy ,time consuming and tedious. They couldn't afford to simply put everything on hold. They had BILLS to pay..revenue to make. because like you said it's a BUSINESS! They had no choice but to keep it moving.

What is this list that you speak of where you claim I said Beyonce murdered careers? I recall GAME making that thread and had Brandy down as one of her victims. So Im a little lost on that one... receipts?

On to Monica...her first two albums were certified 3x platinum at the end of the day. And on this board we usually judge based off certifications. We only resort to soundscan when we wanna nitpick and be petty (which you are doing btw ). When its all said and done ..ON PAPER they're triple platinum efforts. So to have a platinum album is a . And to make matters worse is..it struggled to even get to platinum sales. After The Storm debuted at #1 but dropped BIG TIME..with each week. It took forever for her to get to GOLD...so I dont even wanna think about when it had officially received plat certification. An album that struggles to go GOLD and takes 100 years to get to platinum status is NOT A HIT!

And as far as that Legend question..I never said it didn't go in cycles. NO ONE can hold a position forever. I pretty much gave him the overview as to why the 5 TOP BITCHES are the TOP 5 BITCHES.

[ThatOtherFan]

Stating and acknowledging the truth doesn't equal co-signing. However trying to ignore the truth and come up with excuses equals being delusional and reaching

You are attempting to co-sign as usual.

Oh..TOF..TOF..TOF ...my child

You are sooooo determined to make Ashanti be something she simply isn't,wasn't and NEVER will be. :lmao: Tell me,why would we need an Ashanti..if we have a Beyonce? Two black girls,same age..Beyonce took over that spot..and thats it! Deal with it! Like Henri said...you are relying so much on that Murder Inc situation. TOF...they were raided in January.NOTHING STOPPED ASHANTI FROM PROMOTING. how many times do I have to say this. The public heard about the raid and that was it! No one was contemplating over it...they were under investigation and thats it. Investigations go on privately w/o a sound.The public was not focused on it..and Irv kept running his company as if no raid had happen. Irv was actually cocky as if "they can investigate..they wont find shit".He was unfazed..therefore..it didn't affect his work or his label. The ball was still rolling. What are you not understanding. If Ashanti is still promoting the album...then how is she being affected? You are still not making sense. Now if that shit went down and we didnt see Ashantt promoting ..then you would have a point!.. BUT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY. You're trying to create a scenario. Keep in mind. Irv and Ashanti were on a mission to ride out becuz they seen Beyonce was bout to claim the new "it" girl spot. Thats why they structured every promo avenue they had for Ashanti to be parallel to Beyonce's. They made sure to book and schedule Ashanti for every show that Beyonce was doing. They were in the race! That investigation DID NOT stop them from handling business..what are they suppose to do..twiddle their thumbs while they wait?? Investigations are lengthy ,time consuming and tedious. They couldn't afford to simply put everything on hold. They had BILLS to pay..revenue to make. because like you said it's a BUSINESS! They had no choice but to keep it moving.

What is this list that you speak of where you claim I said Beyonce murdered careers? I recall GAME making that thread and had Brandy down as one of her victims. So Im a little lost on that one... receipts?

On to Monica...her first two albums were certified 3x platinum at the end of the day. And on this board we usually judge based off certifications. We only resort to soundscan when we wanna nitpick and be petty (which you are doing btw ). When its all said and done ..ON PAPER they're triple platinum efforts. So to have a platinum album is a . And to make matters worse is..it struggled to even get to platinum sales. After The Storm debuted at #1 but dropped BIG TIME..with each week. It took forever for her to get to GOLD...so I dont even wanna think about when it had officially received plat certification. An album that struggles to go GOLD and takes 100 years to get to platinum status is NOT A HIT!

And as far as that Legend question..I never said it didn't go in cycles. NO ONE can hold a position forever. I pretty much gave him the overview as to why the 5 TOP BITCHES are the TOP 5 BITCHES.

No, I'm not...again

I'm simply saying you do not know what would've have happened if Ashanti had a leveled playing field. Talent doesn't always win the day (Again...Britney Spears, anyone?)

Plenty of talented people don't get the break they deserve in the industry for numerous reasons, as I said in my initial post, one can argue if certain things hadn't taken place (Muder Inc's issues playing a role in Ashanti's career, Aaliyah passing, Janet next project after Beyonce's solo release being the one involving the SB) Beyonce may not have gotten her time to shine at all.

Of course Irv was cocky...Irv is cocky about everything, and up to that point from 1999 - 2003 Murder Inc was a MAJOR force in the industry. He probably didn't see it coming to an end, but the raid happened, he was ultimately charged, and then his parent label wouldn't renew his contract leaving him and his artists with no where to go for almost two years! That's going to have an effect on an artists career, and it did effect Ashanti's career and the way the label EFFECTIVELY promoted her and her projects. Again, my point is you can't say what would have happened because there wasn't a leveled playing field.

I emphasized the word effectively for a reason. It goes back to the comment I paraphrased from Janet "the artist can't do it alone, the label has to support and do it's part." For instance, during another random discussion I had with Austineisha he went on and on about how Beyonce proved her label wrong because they said they initially said there were no hits on DIL. I told him, while that may be true, ultimately someone at the label saw the potential in the CD and put the necessary promotion behind the project because Beyonce can't do it all on her own. Yeah she be on every television show that will have her singing "Crazy In Love" but it's not going to mean much if the label isn't doing it's part in supporting the project. That can be applied to Ashanti's situation as well. Of course, the situation is different but you should understand what I'm trying to say...

If I'm not mistaken the reason we were even discussing Brandy, Monica, Ashanti etc was because you brought them up earlier in this thread.

I'm not nitpicking about Monica's sales...I'm merely stating that figure for "After The Storm" was good for her because she's never scanned more than 2 million or shipped more than 3 million in the US. Beyonce released a solo effort and she did just fine...that was my ONLY point.

So again, Beyonce is not responsible for destroying careers with her solo releases..it's just ludicrous to even make that statement. That's some stan mode type ish that I would expect from Austineisha.

As far your comment to Legend...that is THE POINT...it goes in cycles, though ultimately there is room for everybody.

The music industry is VERY fast pace, people come and go very quickly for various different reasons...Beyonce solo success is not the destroyer of careers that you and others try to make it out to be.

[janetDAYZ]

You are attempting to co-sign as usual.

No, I'm not...again

I'm simply saying you do not know what would've have happened if Ashanti had a leveled playing field. Talent doesn't always win the day (Again...Britney Spears, anyone?)

Plenty of talented people don't get the break they deserve in the industry for numerous reasons, as I said in my initial post, one can argue if certain things hadn't taken place (Muder Inc's issues playing a role in Ashanti's career, Aaliyah passing, Janet next project after Beyonce's solo release being the one involving the SB) Beyonce may not have gotten her time to shine at all.

Of course Irv was cocky...Irv is cocky about everything, and up to that point from 1999 - 2003 Murder Inc was a MAJOR force in the industry. He probably didn't see it coming to an end, but the raid happened, he was ultimately charged, and then his parent label wouldn't renew his contract leaving him and his artists with no where to go for almost two years! That's going to have an effect on an artists career, and it did effect Ashanti's career and the way the label EFFECTIVELY promoted her and her projects. Again, my point is you can't say what would have happened because there wasn't a leveled playing field.

I emphasized the word effectively for a reason. It goes back to the comment I paraphrased from Janet "the artist can't do it alone, the label has to support and do it's part." For instance, during another random discussion I had with Austineisha he went on and on about how Beyonce proved her label wrong because they said they initially said there were no hits on DIL. I told him, while that may be true, ultimately someone at the label saw the potential in the CD and put the necessary promotion behind the project because Beyonce can't do it all on her own. Yeah she be on every television show that will have her singing "Crazy In Love" but it's not going to mean much if the label isn't doing it's part in supporting the project. That can be applied to Ashanti's situation as well. Of course, the situation is different but you should understand what I'm trying to say...

If I'm not mistaken the reason we were even discussing Brandy, Monica, Ashanti etc was because you brought them up earlier in this thread.

I'm not nitpicking about Monica's sales...I'm merely stating that figure for "After The Storm" was good for her because she's never scanned more than 2 million or shipped more than 3 million in the US. Beyonce released a solo effort and she did just fine...that was my ONLY point.

So again, Beyonce is not responsible for destroying careers with her solo releases..it's just ludicrous to even make that statement. That's some stan mode type ish that I would expect from Austineisha.

As far your comment to Legend...that is THE POINT...it goes in cycles, though ultimately there is room for everybody.

The music industry is VERY fast pace, people come and go very quickly for various different reasons...Beyonce solo success is not the destroyer of careers that you and others try to make it out to be.

TOF ..An investigation on Gotti did NOT stop it being a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. NOTHING STOPPED in regards to the Ashanti machine. She was their BIGGEST artist. You think Gotti was gonna let them keep him from cashing in on his cash cow. He's about making his paper.The investigation, is shit goin on in the background that had no EFFECT on what Ashanti was doing. MY GOD. Again,they didn't use that excuse so why are you? THEY CLEARLY SAID WHY THEY LOST TO BEYONCE!It would in fact be much easier and a lesser blow for them to blame it on the Inc bullshit but they DIDN'T. You are completely ignoring EVERYTHING that took place and thats what makes your argument laughable. I'm giving you quotes..Im giving you facts...yet you are still coming with the "maybe this and maybe that" ..and that DOES NOT FLY,GIVE IT UP!

And you are REALLY in denial if you think Beyonce wasn't gonna shine regardless of those circumstance taking place.

1) She's a bonafied talent that really can't be matched. (She's the best at what she does)

2) She was just coming off of one of the most successful GIRL GROUPS IN HISTORY

3) She already had a great relationship with Columbia..and they were ready to cash in.

4) She WAS Destiny's Child..she carried the group on her shoulders....

With all those things...she was DESTINED to breakout in a big way. C'mon now. You cant have a better set up for a SOLO career than that. She played the HELL out of her cards and it all worked because she had the right ingredients and formula. It wasn't one person or circumstance that was gonna stop this mastermind plan.

Now,Gotti. TOF ...When the REAL SHIT went down with Murder Inc it was way after the Chapter II era ...It was too fresh to have affected that era. The trial didnt start until early 05'. They worked ALL thru 03-05. Ashanti even released Concrete Rose in the last quarter of 04'(And promoted it,performing ONLY YOU so many times..my head was spinning). You act like the investigation brought everything to a hault!. If so..then why did other releases occur..like another Ja Rule album,Lloyd album..and another Ashanti album.THEY STILL HAD A BUSINESS TO RUN..and they were gonna deal with it when it came to them (meaning the trial).If any album by Ashanti got affected by the bullshit it would be the Concrete Rose album..NOT CHAPTER II (and even to say it fucked up shit for Concrete Rose is a stretch). but Chapter II was free and in the clear..It had the oppurtunity to do what it could do. Just move on.

As far as you talking to Austin about that beyonce did it by herself shit. I do agree with you. I will say I do recall her label NOT too impressed with what Beyonce brought them..but after "Crazy In Love" hit..they had NO CHOICE but to back her because they realized Beyonce tapped into the core of something that was catching everyone's attention and just as business men they would have been fools to not capitalize on it. I hope Austin really doesnt believe that Columbia didn't support her at that hit,if thats what you were saying he said. But this situation with Ashanti IS different. The label was still functioning..as I keep reiterating. They still have a job to do and bring in revenue. You act like you don't know how investigations work. ITS ALL BACKGROUND WORK. Nothing about it keeps them from doing what they would normally do as a label.PERIOD.

And I dont recall bringing up Brandy because she was never relevant to the discussion because I always felt Monica,Ashnti and Mya were Beyonce's victims becuz they all dropped ,practically..at the same time in the summer of 03'. So Brandy was never apart of this discussion or even In my mind..I really dont recall bringing her up.

But that Monica thing is still not good..not even for her! It STRUGGLED to go GOLD,period. Thats not a good thing for anyone who have two triple plat certified albums. It probably took a year and a half to two years to finally hit plat. Beyonce was the MAIN focus..and outshined all her comp and thats why Mya got overlooked. Ashanti was affected the less..then Monica,then Mya.

And to Legend question thing ..."Its room for everyone" only in a way to replacing the top bitches..not as in..142132456 artists ALL being successful at the same time.THERE'S A DIFFERENCE,especially in today's music. Thats why I initially stated "that room for everybody" statement isnt as prevalent TODAY. It's usually only so many spots available nowadays. Back in the 90s you had more of a bulk of successful artists. There was more room to succeed back then.

[Mr. Wonder]

DEAD at Kelis having stans, though.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[Mr. Wonder]

*Cue Austineisha to enter the thread doing his usual stanning for Bey...though he claims not be a stan*

lol I know how the girls are (not you dayz lol) they love to think you're automatically a stan if you say something in defense of someone else

And there you have the functioning definition of the word "irony".

[Mr. Wonder]

And IDK why you all even entertain TOF's foolishness. We all know Beyonce ended all them R&B chicks' careers. There's no interest in them other girls because Beyonce came along.

It's quite funny how TOF denies this, but cosigned Janet ending the careers of Paula, Karyn, Vanessa, etc. Hypocrisy and double standard at their finest.

[Mr. Wonder]

What? Okaaaaaaay.

Yes, I DO think that Janet's best vocal performance is "What Can I Say" :excited: Thanks for the reminder She MERKED them vocals. Strength was used! Range was shown! Crisp, confident, fearless delivery! What can I say (lol) she truly delivered the goods on that track. :blush:

The fact that you think WCIS is a good vocal lets me know that you are in no position to judge anyone's vocals.

[LyricalLesson]

The fact that you think WCIS is a good vocal lets me know that you are in no position to judge anyone's vocals.

I usually don't pay any attention to, or entertain your little smart ass remarks and replies to various threads on here since the last time I had to put you in your place, but I will do so this time:

Who the hell are you? I can "judge" anyone's vocals if I damn well please. It's called me having an opinion -- which is JUST as good and valid as any one else's. Including your's, Miss High & Mighty.

I think "What Can I Say" is Janet's BEST vocal. Nothing you say will change my mind. Get over it. And please, do yourself a favor and go sit your ass down somewhere. Clearly you must still be a little ornery and bothered by Elixabef owning you in the "5 Dolla Footlong" thread. :lmao:

[Mr. Wonder]

You can THINK it's one of Janet's best vocals, but in this scenario your opinion is stupid (and just wrong).

First off, the key that WCIS is in is far too high. As a mezzo soprano whose voice is terribly thin, Janet's voice is not built to sing melodies that have that much range, or in a key that high. Hence why a majority of Janet's songs are written in low keys, and don't require her to go beyond C5. Singing beyond your tessitura is a sign of a singer not knowing how to use their voice PROPERLY. That's exactly what Janet is doing throughout that song. She's reaching for those notes. Not only is it wrong, it also damages the vocal chords, and in a way she's straining.

Sad you don't know this and you call yourself a singer, and I use that term loosely.

Your standards are obviously as you think that back and forth was me "being owned". Kinda explains why you think WCIS is a good vocal and "Sexhibition" is your favorite Janet song.

Thanks to some friends of mine and their lessons (homage paid), I know more about vocals than you know, and will ever know. So the best thing you can do is accept what I say as fact and move on.