Ginuwine: Aaliyah would be 'neck and neck' with Beyonce

[ThatOtherFan]

Okay, let's just say Beyonce did use DC3 as a stepping stone for her career:

It's a given that Destiny Child's was a stepping stone for her solo career.

A solo career is an entirely different beast though, It's not a given that group success will translate into a successful solo career. Hell, we already had a LONG discussion about the label almost not supporting DIL because they weren't initially pleased with the songs on it. Speaking about Beyonce's solo career, the timing of it, and the way things went down. Those things that I've mentioned played a huge role in her having the success that she did. Again, if any of the things I listed were different, it could've been an ENTIRELY different ball game.

[henrietta.]

And to take it a step further:

Dangerously In Love vs Aaliyah

DIL went 4x platinum, while Aaliyah only went 2x platinum. "We Need A Resolution" and "Rock The Boat" only made it to #59 and #14 on the Hot 100 respectively. It's obvious that ppl didn't care too much for her when she was alive, much less when she died. In the event of an untimely death, record sales typically spark, a la MJ, Teena Marie, etc. Aaliyah didn't experience neither of that as her album only went 2x platinum, and the follow up only went platinum.

DIL went 4x platinum, debuted at #1, produced two #1 singles for a total of 17 weeks at #1 (the most weeks at #1 on the Hot 100 from a debut album), and produced two other top 5 singles. Not only did it win 5 Grammys, but it cemented Beyonce as being the first Black female to simultaneously have the #1 single AND album in both the US AND the UK. Aaliyah's singles didn't do well on the UK chart, or anywhere else internationally.

*continues to watch you play Dance Dance Revolution on his neck*

[ThatOtherFan]

I'm not a Bey stan and it's clear to say they wouldn't be neck and neck. Musically, Aaliyah would have faded along with Toni, Ashanti, Brandy, Monica, Mya and so on. Aaliyah would be a great actress though...and would probably have success in the music world off soundtracks.

The type of movies (just from those that she had signed on to do at the time of her death) and success from them could have been used as platform for her career in music. They were probably trying to position her as actress/musician like Jennifer Lopez...if you go back look at all the stuff she had lined up at the time of her death, the argument could be made that she would have achieved it and perhaps surpassed what Jlo was able to do.

And to take it a step further:

Dangerously In Love vs Aaliyah

DIL went 4x platinum, while Aaliyah only went 2x platinum. "We Need A Resolution" and "Rock The Boat" only made it to #59 and #14 on the Hot 100 respectively. It's obvious that ppl didn't care too much for her when she was alive, much less when she died. In the event of an untimely death, record sales typically spark, a la MJ, Teena Marie, etc. Aaliyah didn't experience neither of that as her album only went 2x platinum, and the follow up only went platinum.

DIL went 4x platinum, debuted at #1, produced two #1 singles for a total of 17 weeks at #1 (the most weeks at #1 on the Hot 100 from a debut album), and produced two other top 5 singles. Not only did it win 5 Grammys, but it cemented Beyonce as being the first Black female to simultaneously have the #1 single AND album in both the US AND the UK. Aaliyah's singles didn't do well on the UK chart, or anywhere else internationally.

Again, if one were alive the other might not have existed (their solo career that is). That is the point of the discussion...compare/contrast is pointless when the whole point is if one lived, the other's career might not have been as successful.

And Aaliyah did spark a tremendous sales spike after her passing.

And some of the singles from the "Aaliayh" did better in the UK than they did in the states.

[janetDAYZ]

Better singer - it depends what kind of singing you like. Beyonce has more power but Aaliyah puts more emotion into it.

Better dancer - Aaliyah. Gyrating is not dancing, Bey.

Better actress - Aaliyah.

Better lyricist - neither wrote. Changing a word don't count.

Better performer - Beyonce. Aaliyahs performances bored me somewhat. I always felt she was holding back.

I LOVE Aaliyah. I love Beyonce. I prefer Aaliyah. But I'm not kidding myself in thinking Aaliyah would be more successful. Perhaps in the box office yeah she may have been. Musically? No. We Need A Resolution near enough flopped when she was alive. She had more success with her soundtrack singles. I think had she left Blackground then yes...she could have been more successful as an artist. I also think the fact that her music was ahead of its time worked against her in terms of material success.

[Mr. Wonder]

It's a given that Destiny Child's was a stepping stone for her solo career.

A solo career is an entirely different beast though, It's not a given that group success will translate into a successful solo career. Hell, we already had a LONG discussion about the label almost not supporting DIL because they weren't initially pleased with the songs on it. Speaking about Beyonce's solo career, the timing of it, and the way things went down. Those things that I've mentioned played a huge role in her having the success that she did. Again, if any of the things I listed were different, it could've been an ENTIRELY different ball game.

Okay, let's rule out Beyonce's solo career. Beyonce/DC and Aaliyah were on equal playing field from the gate.

Age Ain't Nothing But A Number vs Destiny's Child

One In A Million vs The Writings On The Wall

Aaliyah vs Survivor

I Care 4 U vs Destiny Fulfilled

In all of those scenarios, Beyonce/DC performed better on the charts and in sales.

And let's use your argument, Beyonce benefited from the misfortunes of others. Okay. What was stopping Aaliyah from achieving success with Aaliyah? She had label support. She didn't have competition. She had the right material. When "We Need A Resolution" came out, the AFY era had slowed down in terms of sales. No other R&B female was out during that time (correct me if I'm wrong). What about in 1996? Brandy wasn't out. Monica wasn't out. Mya wasn't out. So what's the excuse for OIAM not doing huge numbers? The same in 1994 when AANBAN. Only Brandy was out at that time. What stopped Aaliyah then? Why didn't she move units? Lest we not forget it took 6 or 7 years for that album to go 2x platinum, and it was certified AFTER she died (correct me if I'm wrong). Why? BECAUSE NO ONE CARED FOR HER.

[Mr. Wonder]

Again, if one were alive the other might not have existed (their solo career that is). That is the point of the discussion...compare/contrast is pointless when the whole point is if one lived, the other's career might not have been as successful.

And Aaliyah did spark a tremendous sales spike after her passing.

And some of the singles from the "Aaliayh" did better in the UK than they did in the states.

I don't see where you're getting your argument. Beyonce is a better singer. A better performer. She's more internationally known. Her appeal is much greater. Beyonce was bound to shit on the girls.

Aaliyah has only moved 8 million albums stateside.

Hardly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Need_a_Resolution_(Aaliyah_song)#Charts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_the_Boat_(Aaliyah_song)#Charts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_than_a_Woman_(Aaliyah_song)#Charts

[ThatOtherFan]

Okay, let's rule out Beyonce's solo career. Beyonce/DC and Aaliyah were on equal playing field from the gate.

Age Ain't Nothing But A Number vs Destiny's Child

One In A Million vs The Writings On The Wall

Aaliyah vs Survivor

I Care 4 U vs Destiny Fulfilled

In all of those scenarios, Beyonce/DC performed better on the charts and in sales.

And let's use your argument, Beyonce benefited from the misfortunes of others. Okay. What was stopping Aaliyah from achieving success? She had label support. She didn't have much competition. She had the right material. When "We Need A Resolution" came out, the AFY era had slowed down in terms of sales. No other R&B female was out during that time (correct me if I'm wrong). What about in 1996? Brandy wasn't out. Monica wasn't out. Mya wasn't out? So what's the excuse for OIAM not doing huge numbers? Why? BECAUSE NO ONE CARED FOR HER.

DC the group performed better on the charts, but you have nothing to weigh the solo success against, because one was gone by the point the other released...and the WHOLE debate is that if one had lived the other may not have found the type of solo success she did on the charts.

Even with WNAR peaking at #59 on the Hot 100. The "Aaliyah" album debuted at #2 with the highest figures of Aaliyah's career, and by the time Aaliyah died there had ONLY been one single/video released from the project...

OIAM did 2x plat in the US. What are you talking about?

The whole debate/argument is over if Aaliyah had lived, and did the things she had lined to do, how that would have changed the game for her career and the industry. Remember, she had accomplished alot, but she was on the verge of accomplishing so much more....

[henrietta.]

The type of movies (just from those that she had signed on to do at the time of her death) and success from them could have been used as platform for her career in music. They were probably trying to position her as actress/musician like Jennifer Lopez...if you go back look at all the stuff she had lined up at the time of her death, the argument could be made that she would have achieved it and perhaps surpassed what Jlo was able to do.

I doubt she would be able to beat what J.Lo did, but her movies would have been bigger hits than J.Lo's. She showed that she wasn't afraid to do roles out of the normal (that vampire role >>>>> others female singers turned actresses roles). Musically, before her death she really wasn't that big. She did have catchy songs that were constantly played on the radio, but she wasn't dominating the charts. She would have faded musically, but would have been a big actress.

[ThatOtherFan]

I don't see where you're getting your argument. Beyonce is a better singer. A better performer. She's more internationally known. Her appeal is much greater. Beyonce was bound to shit on the girls.

Aaliyah has only moved 8 million albums stateside.

Hardly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Need_a_Resolution_(Aaliyah_song)#Charts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_the_Boat_(Aaliyah_song)#Charts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_than_a_Woman_(Aaliyah_song)#Charts

It goes back to what I've said NUMEROUS times. Beyonce was able to get her shine as a solo artist because certain circumstances that played into favor. Yes, she had the material and is a great talent, but that doesn't necessarily lead to success on the charts (I'm not discounting her as an artist or her material on DIL, even though that's what Austineisha and many others think I'm doing whenever we have these types of conversations). The business is NOT just about talent and material, if that were the case, the people at the "top" of the industry might not have that position. Bey benefited from the fact that Janet's AFY era was over (and when she returned she was about to through the hell we now know as the aftermath of the SB), the effect of the issues over at Murder Inc on Ashanti's career, and of course Aaliyah's death. Anyone of these three circumstances being different could've made a huge difference on Bey's solo success with DIL and after that point.

Specifically referring to Aaliyah, she was positioning herself to do some great things. If you go back to that time, she was successfully transitioning from being a "teen star" while her contemporaries (Brandy and Monica) were finding that transition alittle difficult, Aaliyah was doing some of the best numbers of her career (remember she was just on the first single of the "Aaliyah" album by that point) and had alot of things lined up that would have taken her career to another level. Which is why so many people in the industry talk about what could have been and say she was "on the verge" of so many things.

[ThatOtherFan]

I doubt she would be able to beat what J.Lo did, but her movies would have been bigger hits than J.Lo's. She should that she wasn't afraid to do roles out of the normal (that vampire role >>>>> others female singers turned actresses roles). Musically, before her death she really wasn't that big. She did have catchy songs that were constantly played on the radio, but she wasn't dominating the charts. She would have faded musically, but would have been a big actress.

Again, the success in movies could have and probably would have been used as a platform for her career in music.

What if she had lived and completed the Matrix roles and they (the producers/execs of the film) chose her to do the lead single from the film's soundtrack? Then she took advantage of that and released an album at the same time?

What if she had did the "Honey" film, that ultimately went to Jessica Alba? Same scenario as the Matrix with the soundtrack and then releasing an album at the same time?

And both of these films were released in 2003...the same year Beyonce released as a solo artist. Do you now see what I've been trying to say about how things might have been different if Aaliyah lived?

[henrietta.]

Again, the success in movies could have and probably would have been used as a platform for her career in music.

What if she had lived and completed the Matrix roles and they (the producers/execs of the film) chose her to do the lead single from the film's soundtrack? Then she took advantage of that and released an album at the same time?

What if she had did the "Honey" film, that ultimately went to Jessica Alba? Same scenario as the Matrix with the soundtrack and then releasing an album at the same time?

And both of these films were released in 2003...the same year Beyonce released as a solo artist. Do you now see what I've been trying to say about how things might have been different if Aaliyah lived?

Like I said, maybe with soundtracks

[ThatOtherFan]

Like I said, maybe with soundtracks

...and albums too.

[Mr. Wonder]

DC the group performed better on the charts, but you have nothing to weigh the solo success against, because one was gone by the point the other released...and the WHOLE debate is that if one had lived the other may not have found the type of solo success she did on the charts.

Even with WNAR peaking at #59 on the Hot 100. The "Aaliyah" album debuted at #2 with the highest figures of Aaliyah's career, and by the time Aaliyah died there had ONLY been one single/video released from the project...

OIAM did 2x plat in the US. What are you talking about?

The whole debate/argument is over if Aaliyah had lived, and did the things she had lined to do, how that would have changed the game for her career and the industry. Remember, she had accomplished alot, but she was on the verge of accomplishing so much more....

I edited my post.

And let's use your argument, Beyonce benefited from the misfortunes of others. Okay. What was stopping Aaliyah from achieving success with Aaliyah? She had label support. She didn't have competition. She had the right material. When "We Need A Resolution" came out, the AFY era had slowed down in terms of sales. No other R&B female was out during that time (correct me if I'm wrong). What about in 1996? Brandy wasn't out. Monica wasn't out. Mya wasn't out. So what's the excuse for OIAM not doing huge numbers? The same in 1994 when AANBAN. Only Brandy was out at that time. What stopped Aaliyah then? Why didn't she move units? Lest we not forget it took 6 or 7 years for that album to go 2x platinum, and it was certified AFTER she died (correct me if I'm wrong). Why? BECAUSE NO ONE CARED FOR HER.

And you still didn't answer my question. What was stopping Aaliyah back in her day? Brandy went 4x platinum with her 1994 album. Aaliyah only went 2x platinum. Monica went 3x platinum with her 1998 album, when two years prior Aaliyah only 2x platinum. You act like Aaliyah was on her way to shutting down the game. Lest we not forget Alicia scalped her in 2001. She wouldn't have survived Alicia, let alone Beyonce. Her singles were struggling on the charts BEFORE she died. That means nobody was here for them or her.

[henrietta.]

...and albums too.

She didn't have the J.Lo appeal...plus Bey's solo was around the corner.

[ThatOtherFan]

I edited my post.

And you still didn't answer my question. What was stopping Aaliyah back in her day? Brandy went 4x platinum with her 1994 album. Aaliyah only went platinum. Monica went 3x platinum with her 1998 album, when two years prior Aaliyah only 2x platinum. You act like Aaliyah was on her way to shutting down the game. Lest we not forget Alicia scalped her in 2001. She wouldn't have survived Alicia, let alone Beyonce. Her singles wre struggling on the charts BEFORE she died. That means nobody was here for them or her.

Aaliyah's 1994 debut did 3 million. She did 2x Plat with her next, and 2x plat with final.

She had ONE single struggle on the charts before she passed and that was WNAR.

Again, the debate is over what would have happened had she lived and did the things she had lined up. How that would have impacted her career, and the game itself.

As I said, she had accomplished alot, but she was on the verge of accomplishing so much more...

[henrietta.]

Aaliyah's 1994 debut did 3 million. She did 2x Plat with her next, and 2x plat with final.

Like I said, she would have faded And even then most of those sales came when people jumped on the "Aaliyah was great" bandwagon when she passed.

[ThatOtherFan]

She didn't have the J.Lo appeal...plus Bey's solo was around the corner.

You already said her films would have been bigger than Jlo's and she already had an established career as a artist. The argument can be made that she could have surpassed what Jlo did.

As far as Bey solo career, look back at what I listed Aaliyah had coming in 2003. Now if she could have taken advantage of all of that in regards to her singing career, do you see how that might have impacted Bey's solo success?

[ThatOtherFan]

Like I said, she would have faded And even then most of those sales came when people jumped on the "Aaliyah was great" bandwagon when she passed.

You can perhaps say that about the "Aaliyah" album, but other projects had the those sales certifications before she passed.

[henrietta.]

You already said her films would have been bigger than Jlo's and she already had an established career as a artist. The argument can be made that she could have surpassed what Jlo did.

As far as Bey solo career, look back at what I listed Aaliyah had coming in 2003. Now if she could have taken advantage of all of that in regards to her singing career, do you see how that might have impacted Bey's solo success?

You act like there aren't folks whose acting career don't trump their music career It was established but it huge...it was just a lil bit bigger than Mya's. She would have been successful off soundtracks if anything.

She would have gotten overlooked because of both Bey and Alicia Keys.

[henrietta.]

You can perhaps say that about the "Aaliyah" album, but other projects had the those sales certifications before she passed.

Probably 1 million less

[art]

Aaliyah's 1994 debut did 3 million. She did 2x Plat with her next, and 2x plat with final.

Thanks to R. Kelly.

[ThatOtherFan]

You act like there aren't folks whose acting career don't trump their music career It was established but it huge...it was just a lil bit bigger than Mya's. She would have been successful off soundtracks if anything.

She would have gotten overlooked because of both Bey and Alicia Keys.

Yes, but I'm saying she had the opportunity and the type of films coming up that could have played a SIGNIFICANT role in her music career.

The whole point is that had she lived Bey might have had her time to shine...so no, she wouldn't have been overlooked.

Probably 1 million less

The same damn certifications... they probably did sell more. There was huge spike in her sales after she passed.

[ThatOtherFan]

Thanks to R. Kelly.

Was that really necessary?

[art]

Was that really necessary?

Mad?

[Mr. Wonder]

Aaliyah's 1994 debut did 3 million. She did 2x Plat with her next, and 2x plat with final.

She had ONE single struggle on the charts before she passed and that was WNAR.

Again, the debate is over what would have happened had she lived and did the things she had lined up. How that would have impacted her career, and the game itself.

As I said, she had accomplished alot, but she was on the verge of accomplishing so much more...

The RIAA has her debut at 2x platinum, OIAM at 2x platinum, self title at 2x platinum, and IC4U at platinum. That's 7mil, which leaves 1 million as reported by Soundscan/Billoard.

She was on the verge of accomplishing more, but she would not be neck and neck with Beyonce. Aaliyah wasn't even international when she was alive, and her singles weren't doing much before she died. She was a lesser girl to Brandy and Monica on the charts. If she hadn't died, she wouldn't have passed Monica in album sales, and didn't even past Brandy. She had a so-so voice that wasn't good at carrying a melody, but better at harmonizing. She was a so-so dancer. Her performances always lacked energy, and her delivery sucked. If you look at to how she performed when in 1994, to how she performed in 2001, there wasn't much growth as a performer. She did have a decent evolution musically, but it was obvious from the sales that ppl weren't interested. If you die, and your most recent album only goes 2x platinum, that means the people weren't that interested in you. And the shade is that AABAN and Aaliyah didn't got 2x platinum until after she died. Not to mention it took 6 months for the latter to go double platinum. Aaliyah was not on her way to shutting down the game. Her last two albums got decent reviews from the critics, her first was laughed at. She was on her way to being a full time actress because every time she released an album, she took the back seat to someone. And yes OIAM did go 2x platinum, and the follow up did the same. That means that she was going places musically if she was consistently stuck at 2x platinum. She would not be on Beyonce's level if she were still alive today. Fact.